Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

[Lurina]

I mean, the ancients inside Zodiark volunteered to be there, which makes the moral consideration of whether it's "okay" to leave them there different compared to the targets of the third sacrifice, which would have no say in the matter or understanding of why they they were being sacrificed.

They 'volunteered' under the imminent threat of everyone dying anyway. I'm pretty sure that counts as under duress. When you talk to someone of them on the moon, it's clear that at least a fair number are not at all happy about what happened.

And again, it's suggested that everyone went into the plan understanding the intent was to find a way to free their souls once the crisis had been resolved. The Ancients in Zodiark gave up their lives conditionally to protect their own civilization and loved ones in the medium term. They did not agree to their immortal souls becoming batteries for a shield to protect a completely different group of races and civilizations for 12,000 years. Hydaelyn's plan was predicated on their non-consensual exploitation just as much as the Convocation's plan was predicated on the non-consensual exploitation of the third wave of sacrifices.

...that is, assuming they were sapient, which as always is not really made clear for some reason.

Honestly, I feel like the Ancients who sacrificed themselves are never really centered enough in these conversations. They gave up everything to save the world, only for Hydaelyn to treat them as tools in her gambit (which wasn't even guaranteed to work, based on G'raha's timeline), deciding that they were to bare the burden for the safety of her 'children' indefinitely. But despite them being their perpetual protectors, taking 100% of the burden that would otherwise have destroyed the planet at a moment's notice, she literally erased them from history; swept them under the rug.

If that's not an Omelas situation, I don't know what is.

[RyuDragnier]

...that is, assuming they were sapient, which as always is not really made clear for some reason.

I assume the devs thought that if it was outright said that the 3rd sacrifices were sapient, there would be no morally grey area anymore and Venat would be easily declared the heroine and the Convocation the villains, I guess?

[KariTheFox]

And again, it's suggested that everyone went into the plan understanding the intent was to find a way to free their souls once the crisis had been resolved. The Ancients in Zodiark gave up their lives conditionally to protect their own civilization and loved ones in the medium term.

I dunno, Emet-Selch's line about whether half of the sundered would sacrifice their lives for the other kind of loses its weight if what he actually meant was "would half of you agree to be temporarily inconvienced until the other half figures out how to fix it?"

It kind of cheapens the first and second sacrifice if the ancients going into it always knew it was a temporary affair. I always figured that the third sacrifice was something that the remaining ancients came up with after being incapable of accepting the loss of the ones that died to bring about Zodiark.

[tokinokanatae]

I dunno, Emet-Selch's line about whether half of the sundered would sacrifice their lives for the other kind of loses its weight if what he actually meant was "would half of you agree to be temporarily inconvienced until the other half figures out how to fix it?"

They died. It's like saying Papalymo didn't really sacrifice himself, he's just taking a temporary dip in the Aetherial Sea. Or what Ysayle did for us was no biggie because it's not like she gave up the possibility of reincarnation. Why bother getting upset over Haurchefant? Sure, his life was cut short, but his aether still exists, so no problem.

[KariTheFox]

They died. It's like saying Papalymo didn't really sacrifice himself, he's just taking a temporary dip in the Aetherial Sea. Or what Ysayle did for us was no biggie because it's not like she gave up the possibility of reincarnation. Why bother getting upset over Haurchefant? Sure, his life was cut short, but his aether still exists, so no problem.

The intention of the third sacrifice is to bring them back from the dead. Not reincarnate them or let them return to the aetheric sea, but fully and completely restore and revive them.

If that had been successful, then the finality of thier deaths would no longer have any sting. If they had sacrificed themselves assuming they would be brought back to life later, then thier sacrifices would be less meaningful than Ysayle or Papalymo's, who understood they were going to die and there was no coming back.

Edit: And just to be clear, I don't think the people of the first two sacrifices knew about any plans to try to revive them, because I do think those sacrifices are particularly meaningful and show the deep love and dedication the ancients had towards each other and thier star.

[tokinokanatae]

The intention of the third sacrifice is to bring them back from the dead. Not reincarnate them or let them return to the aetheric sea, but fully and completely restore and revive them.

If that had been successful, then the finality of thier deaths would no longer have any sting. If they had sacrificed themselves assuming they would be brought back to life later, then thier sacrifices would be less meaningful than Ysayle or Papalymo's, who understood they were going to die and there was no coming back.

Edit: And just to be clear, I don't think the people of the first two sacrifices knew about any plans to try to revive them, because I do think those sacrifices are particularly meaningful and show the deep love and dedication the ancients had towards each other and thier star.

I don’t agree with this characterization and can’t think of a place in the text where anyone says anything about restoring the bodies of those that sacrificed themselves—if you know of one I’m missing, please do point it out, seriously—but even taking putting forth your idea as absolutely correct, Hien is still brave and laudable when he faces off against Zenos to buy time until we arrive to take up the fight.

This idea that only the Ancients have to be 100% okay with being forever cut off from the cycle of life and rebirth—to be denied their chance to be the lifeblood of the Star, as is so important to them culturally—in order for their actions to be noble has never made sense to me, admittedly.

[KariTheFox]

I don’t agree with this characterization and can’t think of a place in the text where anyone says anything about restoring the bodies of those that sacrificed themselves—.

And from A Friendship of Record

His devotees then resolved to sow new life─a bounty of souls to take the place of their sacrificed brethren. In time would they reap this crop, and by rendering it unto their god would the lost be returned, and the world restored to the paradise it was and ever should have been.

[Lurina]

I dunno, Emet-Selch's line about whether half of the sundered would sacrifice their lives for the other kind of loses its weight if what he actually meant was "would half of you agree to be temporarily inconvienced until the other half figures out how to fix it?"

It kind of cheapens the first and second sacrifice if the ancients going into it always knew it was a temporary affair. I always figured that the third sacrifice was something that the remaining ancients came up with after being incapable of accepting the loss of the ones that died to bring about Zodiark.

IIRC, the text is ambiguous as to whether they accepted being sacrificed under the premise they'd try to bring them back to life, or just that their souls would be freed to return to the star so they wouldn't spend forever in Zodiark purgatory - I'd personally lean towards the latter interpretation, since it does make Emet's speech less weird and generally vibes more akin to the writers intent. Some of the dialogue from the moon definitely makes it clear that being trapped within him for literally millenia was not the plan, at least.

Though, I think it bears mentioning that, even if they had gone into it with the assumption/hope that they'd be saved, giving up your body and staking your literal soul on a plan to save the world that may or may not even work is still a pretty heroic act. I really think people don't appreciate the magnitude of what the sacrifices to Zodiark actually did.

I edited my last post to kinda sharpen the point I was making a bit.