7.0 News from Reddit.

[Iscah]

We're doing this? Okay...

Are we doing "this"? What's this? The mildly annoying thing where you have to shred a post into different quotes and address them?

I'd trim some bits out to keep my response shorter, but then you'd probably say I'm dodging parts of your argument or something.

Taking your character as an example, I assume she'd speak with a trill? Because U'odh Nunh speaks with one. Yet just because he exists, should he thus be taken as representation of normal Miqo'te behaviour? Miqo'te aren't defined by those speech patterns, and haven't been portrayed like that since. Meaning he's an exception, not a norm.

You may need to take a closer look at my character picture.

That said, I do keep forgetting my actual U tribe Miqo'te character should speak with that accent (though I'd sooner come up with an excuse why he doesn't, so I don't have to try to mentally insert it). My Lominsan Miqo'te definitely wouldn't because we don't see anyone from there doing it.

In any case, I don't see how someone mistakenly extrapolating one character's traits to the entire race is proof that there's a problem with how the whole race is portrayed. If anything, it's the opposite.

You're looking at a few Roegadyn with traits you dislike, and insisting that all of them are portrayed that way, and then saying that the portrayal of Roegadyn is problematic because they're all portrayed that way.

Representation doesn't work with background NPCs because they don't have any major relevance. As such they tend to be one-dimensional characters, token at best.

:T If people are asking for representation, it's in the main\secondary rosters (secondary: Lyna, Gosetsu, Julius...).

By that definition, certainly Eynzahr is a secondary character, on par with Lyna as the very constantly present second-in-command to a city leader, regularly appearing across different plot threads as a major representative of Limsa. In fact I'd put him as only slightly less prominent than Merlwyb herself, a reliable presence throughout the game, and more distinct than Jullus who has only been a supporting character in a single story arc so far.

Another one I remembered is Rasho from the Confederates, who again is at least on par with Jullus as an important character for one location but little presence beyond it.

And of course, the big one - no pun intended - is Biggs. He's shown to be a smart engineer and craftsman equal to any of the other Ironworks members.

Also, even if smaller parts are flat and "token", they still build up a picture, and there are plenty of parts in that picture that say "Roegadyn don't always act like dumb brutes".

Not to mention that, like Jettinson said, Eorzean Roegadyn are always portrayed as loud and boisterous, even as voiceless NPCs. The Roegadyn we find in the Ruby Sea seem to follow that trait, albeit slightly toned down. And Sharlayan Roes act like everyone else in Sharlayan. Which is less a stereotype of Roegadyn and similar body types, and more a stereotype of Sharlayan people in general, which Rammbroes follows.

Again, that's just your judgement, and I don't agree with it. I think you're making a strawman of "all Roegadyn behave like X" and then saying it's a problem that all Roegadyn behave like X, while overlooking or dismissing the ones that behave otherwise.

There are Roegadyn that are fishermen or healers or competent craftsmen or a whole blur of other things. One of the first things that stood out to me about this game is how all the fantasy races of "orcs and elves" and whatever are just treated as people and aren't shoehorned into only the one racial stereotype.

So if you want to consider background NPCs, then by your standards, Lyna = Lilja Sjasaris in terms of relevance for Viera.

Aside of the big technicality that Lyna is Viis rather than Viera (as similar as those cultures may be), yes, I do see them equally as "examples of how a Viera might act in society". I don't extrapolate from either of them that all characters of their race culturally act the way they do. They're just one piece in a puzzle that I want to assemble as much of as I can.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to prove with this.

People liked Rammbroes but aren't expected to connect with him, unlike Gosetsu.

Aside of being a bit of a jump of assumptions about what we do and don't connect with, what does that have to do with his base personality? We spend enough time with him to have a gauge of what he's like, and he's an intelligent and thoughtful man. But he doesn't fit the stereotype you want to complain about Roegadyn having, so you discount him.

Plus, I DID mention tertiary NPCs, or did you miss the bit on Hrothgar NPCs? Bc it's curious how you focus on Roes, but I mention Hrothgar NPCs and yet you skip that :T Especially when I point to one NPC that does fit the bill. They're one of 2 races I pointed as fitting, why aren't you mentioning more? Because here's the thing, as I sat here and realized this, I also remembered one Hrothgar NPC that also fits: Rostik. Yet Bajsaljen and Rostik are one-dimensional characters. Good if people enjoy and connect with them, but you're hard-pressed to say they're representation of Hrothgars in the MSQ. So again, why aren't you acknowleding this, despite defending NPCs?

I didn't talk about Hrothgar because I was only addressing your assertion that Roegadyn are all portrayed a specific way, which they are not. The portrayal of Hrothgar, good or otherwise, does not relate to that argument.

And yes, it is rather hard for side-story characters to represent their race in the MSQ, but you didn't set that as a criterion in your previous post as far as I can see. You just said representation in FFXIV, and the writers do create the stories with an expectation that people will engage with side content.

Also, this was about the males? The whole point of bringing up Moenbryda was that EVEN SHE is brash and boisterous, like the Roe stereotype... XD I never once negated all her other traits. I even said the same about Gosetsu. That was the point. Go read my post.

I read your post. You talked about male Roegadyn and then brought up Moenbryda (and Merlwyb) as having the same personality as your "all Roegadyn". So I responded to that.

And again, the brashness is only one aspect of her personality, and we are shown other facets of her, so I don't think it's fair to reduce her to that one aspect as if it's her only one.

"Their design lends well to the stereotype but there are also plenty of characters who break it."

1 - Design doesn't justify stereotype.
2 - Not "plenty", as they're outnumbered by those who don't.
3 - They break it in the background.
4 - Representation does a better job at breaking stereotypes.
5 - Representation isn't done with tertiary characters, that's just common sense and a bit of literary studies.

You got 10 likes. I got a headache.

I don't even know where to start.

You're reducing anything that doesn't fit your argument to insignificant and then dismissing it.

I don't even know how many prominent Roegadyn you're counting by the strict standards you're applying to who is worthy of representing them.

[Midareyukki]

snip

Okay. Let's both take a deep breath and start from the beginning, especially as right now I think I get where you're coming from. You don't need to agree with what I say, simply understand what it is that I'm saying. I'm accusing you of not reading. You're accusing me of far worse. I'm not going to dissect your every word any further. I'll only pick on a few phrases because they did bother me more than others. The rest I really can only say "you're wrong, go back and read what I said". Disagree with the methodology all you want, I just see no point in going in loops when we can just solve the problem at the root.

So with no bull, no ill-will, nothing. I just hope you can understand where I'm coming from and respect what I have to say rather than being accusatory. Because you yourself said, you're not sure of what I'm trying to prove.

From my understanding, you're saying that the game does have characters that don't always fit a stereotype, and that me dismissing them looks like cherrypicking to fit my own views. To you, if the character exists, then they're a part of the world built, and thus are equally relevant to be considered. I'll provide you my definition of what my point is, hoping that you can at last understand why it is I dismiss those characters. It's not because I'm cherrypicking. Cherrypicking implies that I want to paint a narrative and ignore those others without a valid reason. I do have a reason, however, for casting them aside, and I want that reason to be very clear:

I'm referring to P&S characters, not just because they're voiced but because they're characters the dev take a lot of time to expose us to and flesh out further than just their one major appearance. Yes, background characters have a personality and might grow. But they don't tend to be major motivators or influence the plot other than their own. They're in the background to provide a character for ours to interact with, rather than be a presence to the Scions like Lyna was. I keep saying that all I'm referring to is that there are no traits in "primary or secondary characters", and that "background characters" don't really factor in because that's not what people generally search for in terms of representation. Just google people asking for representation in TV shows, you'll quickly see what I'm referring to. You said that you didn't care about tokenism, but what I've seen is that people who want representation don't want them.

P&S characters are ones that we players will be exposed to more often, and their more involved role will allow for a lot more nuance than just a one-time appearance or a background existence. Often, tertiary characters are at their best mentors or leaders, but when they become more than that, they influence the main roster directly. Which I'm sorry, but Rammbroes doesn't. And it's this influence that I want to bring up, because if we have characters with such an influence, they'll pop out more and have a wider presence. Thus allowing people to understand more immediately that a character can be written in such a way without implying any negatives. To me, background characters don't really work because they're there to fulfill a plot role or add to the background and barely anything further. And adding representation there doesn't exactly sit well when you could have similar characters in the main roster. To quote you now,

I read your post. You talked about male Roegadyn and then brought up Moenbryda (and Merlwyb) as having the same personality as your "all Roegadyn". So I responded to that.
And again, the brashness is only one aspect of her personality, and we are shown other facets of her, so I don't think it's fair to reduce her to that one aspect as if it's her only one.

Yes. Exactly. You quoted it yourself:

The whole point of bringing up Moenbryda was that EVEN SHE is brash and boisterous, like the Roe stereotype

You know full well that I didn't reduce Moenbryda to that one singular role, I'm simply saying that the Roegadyn with narrative prominence tend to have that trait. Not just the men, but the women too, hence me mentioning her. I haven't seen any primary or secondary character not display those traits, and the ones that you referred are minor NPCs in comparison. Valid in their own right, but not for the perspective I'm trying to offer. Yes, you can accuse me of cherrypicking, but at least I hope you understand why I do it.
Is it so bad that she's loud? No, it's just that to me, Roegadyn tend to be portrayed as such. And I wasn't the only one telling you that.

I do see where you're coming from. I just don't agree that they're the best fit for representation, as you can do a lot more and provide such a character to players in a more interactive way if their role is a bit more expanded. That's all I'm saying. Whether you agree or not is up to you, but you don't need to attack and accuse me of things, especially when I did not do them. I know I attacked you in turn, and I am sorry. But this is why I kept telling people that even if we disagree with others, we can at least offer a modicum of respect and just say we disagree. Now that I understand where you're coming from I can say: I understand, but I disagree. Whether you agree further than that or not is entirely up to you, I cannot change your mind. Merely show you my point of view.

I never said that you should take my definitions as gospel, just that this is my point of view on how representation should be provided and the sort of character we should elevate. We have a diverse roster for other races, so why is it that the Roegadyn featured in the main roster have such traits? You claim to not get what I said, but I don't think I can be any clearer when I say "body type does not justify a stereotype". The reason I'm asking for representation is specifically to bring that up and change that notion. A notion that wasn't even mine to point out, Aveyond-Dreams did, I simply agreed.

I didn't talk about Hrothgar because I was only addressing your assertion that Roegadyn are all portrayed a specific way, which they are not.

Your post started about me dismissing "background characters... The fact that you then focused on Roegadyn is apparent now, yes, but you still prefaced your post by making it clear you wanted to bring relevance to other NPCs. And I hope you at least understand that I'm saying that the ones that have such plot relevance unlike Rammbroes or others do have that one trait that I personally find unnecessary.

I don't even know where to start.

Maybe by trying to understand in kind? Because I got what you came from amidst your accusations. Maybe you don't like the way I write, but I did harp on the same notion over and over.