Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

[Absimiliard]

Wasn't Emet-Selch going to reject Hermes' recommendation originally? Y'know, before that whole memory wipe thing.

And, if memory serves, just being recommended as a successor by a retiring Convocation member was not enough to actually get you the spot. You still had to make it through the review process, and even then the rest of the Convocation still had a say.

[SentioftheHoukai]

Also, Senti, fair warning: I'm putting you on ignore for your good, because you've outright said that Endwalker is deleterious to your mental health and that you're being treated for depression because of it, so you should, as has already been said in this very thread (and probably by the person treating you) step away from it. I can't get you to do that, but I'm taking what I can into my own hands; maybe if people stop engaging you in conversation that hurts you, you'll walk away from it.

You mean, I wasn't already? Could'a swore you mentioned something to this effect on another thread over yonder, but whatever floats your boat my new-old friend.

Besides, doesn't it defeat the purpose of an ignore list when you give someone advance warning you're placing them on it?

The merits of living in various fantasy nations just come down to personal preference. I'd go a step further and say that it doesn't even matter if you would enjoy living there in practice - fictional settings let you explore the 'what if-s' without consequence.

I think the reason why Amaurot in particular comes under so much scrutiny is because countless atrocities were committed in the name of restoring it to its former glory. Emet-Selch slaughtered seven worlds filled with people on the belief that his people were superior to all the others on the planet. Stories like this just expose the cracks in his nation's fragile jingoism.

Hermes' isn't just another person. He's also a member of the Convocation, and someone who Emet personally elevated to the highest office in Amaurotine society. He's also ultimately the one who not only brings about the downfall of Amaurot, but also destroys the very hope of its revival, twelve thousand years later. It's interesting to see how poorly Emet understood him, and I think that largely comes down to their conflicting approaches to expressing themselves. I think that, had Emet never gone to Elpis, Hermes would have simply towed the party line without question, as he did after the memory wipe.

Either way, it's an interesting character dynamic.

Until those on this forum finally accede that the same can be applied easily and equally to Venat's actions on the Sundered's behalf, none of some of those on here's talking points are worth engaging with.

You love to see it~

[Iscah]

It impressed (/s) me that some people decide to live on modern etheirys, instead of Amaurot, when it's still plague by murder, rape, sex traffic, racism, etc. I don't think the sundered care that much about mental health too, considering they're more concerned with day to day survival.

I don't think people are factoring that in; they're just asking "am I going to fit better in the rough pirate city or the hippy forest city?"

By that logic, the sundered world also need to be under scrutiny because venat commit atrocities against the unsundered because she thought the sundered world is better.

I think the point of scrutinising Amaurot is asking whether it was really in such a superior state to the current sundered worlds, or if that was just a veneer and it's really not much better in practice.

There's also the factor that – whether or not it was the right choice to sunder them in the first place – the sundered worlds are what exist right now and have living people in them. So there's more weight in favour of letting them continue, rather than a purely philosophical "which type of world would be nicer to live in if we were creating it from scratch?"

[Ayche]

It is kind of a no-brainer to ask if you wished to live in a paradise (with no strings attached) or die miserably in the gutter. It does not really make for an interesting conundrum does it?
But really the more interesting question is, what is the ethical choice? I am not going to pretend to be someone better than I am, I would very much like to live in comfort while being completely oblivious to the exploitation and suffering my comfortable lifestyle requires.

So, Eulmore. Before or after the events of ShB? Well...

[Kozh]

I don't think people are factoring that in; they're just asking "am I going to fit better in the rough pirate city or the hippy forest city?"

You don't get to cherry pick when you compare pros and cons of the choices available.

whether it was really in such a superior state to the current sundered worlds

Yes

[Cleretic]

It is kind of a no-brainer to ask if you wished to live in a paradise (with no strings attached) or die miserably in the gutter. It does not really make for an interesting conundrum does it?
But really the more interesting question is, what is the ethical choice? I am not going to pretend to be someone better than I am, I would very much like to live in comfort while being completely oblivious to the exploitation and suffering my comfortable lifestyle requires.

So, Eulmore. Before or after the events of ShB? Well...

This was genuinely why I found Eulmore to be among the most interesting nations we've ever been to. Both morally horrifying and finding a couple other forms of horror to be on top of that, but in a world where, considering the alternatives, 'being horrifying' was awful tempting.

It's definitely a place where the question of 'who suffers so you can live well' has a very blatant answer, and I don't think it was a coincidence that it appeared alongside Emet-Selch, who answered that question on a MUCH grander scale with the answer of 'everyone and everything you know and love'.

[Iscah]

You don't get to cherry pick when you compare pros and cons of the choices available.

That depends entirely on how deeply people are thinking about the pros and cons in the first place.

[KariTheFox]

KozhView Post
By that logic, the sundered world also need to be under scrutiny

I mean, it is? both the characters and the narrative have been critical of the various societies of Ethyris since the beginning. One of the first conversations you have with Alphinaud is him talking about the various problems of the Eorzean city states.

[SentioftheHoukai]

I don't think people are factoring that in; they're just asking "am I going to fit better in the rough pirate city or the hippy forest city?"




I think the point of scrutinising Amaurot is asking whether it was really in such a superior state to the current sundered worlds, or if that was just a veneer and it's really not much better in practice.

There's also the factor that – whether or not it was the right choice to sunder them in the first place – the sundered worlds are what exist right now and have living people in them. So there's more weight in favour of letting them continue, rather than a purely philosophical "which type of world would be nicer to live in if we were creating it from scratch?"

This feels like an overly elaborate way of ignoring and side-stepping the actual moral dilemma here. Nobody ever said that the Sundered ought to die for the sake of what came before, but literally they wouldn't even exist if Venat hadn't committed an unspeakable atrocity that we the Warrior of Light are currently in story actively going out of our way to prevent anybody from learning of. Something that never should have been permitted to happen. Most of us would likely be satisfied if we got to do what G'raha did and engineer a separate timeline for them to live on, but the Venat gang would tell us that this too is wrong in its own way and the plot actively cut this possibility off by going against its own established principles and making the Ancients' Final Days a timeloop instead of an AU.

Think of it this way. Put yourself in the shoes of a nameless, unknowable Elpis researcher or normal, bog-standard but wide-eyed and outgoing citizen of Amaurot. Venat regales to you this awe-inspiring, heart-warming tale of a sparkling, charming new race of sentient, sapient beings that will soon come into existence called the Sundered. She speaks with enthusiasm, speaking of their charm and their exploits of which you can only dream. Then, she begins to speak of how they come to be. And the horror sets in, as this dangerous radical mentions unspeakable deeds that will result in you and everyone you know losing everything you ever loved for a people you know nothing concrete of and have no reason to throw your life, Hells your very way of life away on the dusts of time's withering to support. How is this not horrifying to some posters on here? How is the idea of condemning all that you know, every friend and family member you love and care for; for the sake a race of sentient, upright cockroaches like something straight out of Terraformars not something to be abhorred and condemned? I do not believe I shall ever properly comprehend some of the stances exhibited on this forum.

Tell me. If some time traveler came from the future and could verify and prove they did, and began speaking of a new race that looked like this:



But for them and all that they are, in all their wondrous glory to come into being.... all of humanity had to die. And then, said time traveler asked YOU to help this future come into being (for extra points, this nameless time traveler is revealed to be someone you know well; like a close friend or family member. .....Perhaps your mother?). Would you help them, or tell them to go straight to the Hells?

I mean, it is? both the characters and the narrative have been critical of the various societies of Ethyris since the beginning. One of the first conversations you have with Alphinaud is him talking about the various problems of the Eorzean city states.

The issue in this lies in that the scene of which you speak happens once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away..... They've since lost their way and forgotten the nuance they once had, in their storytelling. Sometimes, I even look back fondly on ARR since Endwalker's narrative sins are just that egregious. I never once thought I'd look on ARR fondly, and yet here we are. I'd take Minfilia a thousand times over when compared to even one more second being reminded I was the toadie of such a omnicidal, hypocritical hack.

[EaraGrace]

Nice "Gotcha!", but you came in at the wrong time later than expected and missed the claimant, your honor. Cleretic holds that duty, not I. ;3

Prove nepotism is a rampant issue in Sharlayan.

Regardless, the vast majority of what was presented to us in the plot of Endwalker regarding the Forum (excepting the climax of the plot, where they get a half-assed "redemption" or more accurately Fourchenault gets such) is largely negative.

Not nepotism.

Either way, from what I saw the Sharlayan Forum gave us no more or larger reasons to trust them implicitly when compared to the Convocation of Fourteen which this forum loves to make assumptions about so I'm not particularly charitable to those begging me not to make my own headcanons on the Sharlayan Forum's conduct.

This isn’t proof. It’s your personal judgement.

I will never think the best of politicians no matter where they're from, fictional or otherwise. And that was really the main point here, Cleretic trying to condemn the Convocation and Amaurot for flaws that can just as easily be laid at the feet of Sharlayan's ruling body and the World Sundered as well.

It’s not. Prove your claim.

This feels like an overly elaborate way of ignoring and side-stepping the actual moral dilemma here. Nobody ever said that the Sundered ought to die for the sake of what came before,

You didn’t play Shadowbringers or Endwalker. That’s the only way to say this seriously. Emet himself goes on a long rant explaining exactly why he thinks it justified to sacrifice the future for the past.