Tales from the Dawn #3: "A Question of Life" (Hermes)

[EaraGrace]

Sharlayan politicians don't need to be immortal, you know why? It's called nepotism, my new-old friend. You know, the same thing people like to criticize the Convocation of Fourteen for?

What need have you for immortality when you can simply pass your position to a protege of your choosing? And if it's not that simple, engineering a situation where it IS that simple is all too easy. Politicians in the real world do this all the time, what's stopping Sharlayan?

The burden of proof is on those making the claim. We have the AST quest as the only example of a Forum member being shady, the rest is conjecture. Unless someone has a particular piece of dialogue that would prove this is a problem.

[SentioftheHoukai]

The burden of proof is on those making the claim. We have the AST quest as the only example of a Forum member being shady, the rest is conjecture.

Nice "Gotcha!", but you came in at the wrong time later than expected and missed the claimant, your honor. Cleretic holds that duty, not I. ;3

Regardless, the vast majority of what was presented to us in the plot of Endwalker regarding the Forum (excepting the climax of the plot, where they get a half-assed "redemption" or more accurately Fourchenault gets such) is largely negative. Also, the AST quests lore is largely known to be incongruent with the Sharlayan that is shown to us in Endwalker. Which, this is hardly surprising seeing as how these quests were made in Heavensward era FFXIV whence undoubtedly a large majority of Endwalker's lore had yet to be properly solidified. Either way, from what I saw the Sharlayan Forum gave us no more or larger reasons to trust them implicitly when compared to the Convocation of Fourteen which this forum loves to make assumptions about so I'm not particularly charitable to those begging me not to make my own headcanons on the Sharlayan Forum's conduct. I will never think the best of politicians no matter where they're from, fictional or otherwise. And that was really the main point here, Cleretic trying to condemn the Convocation and Amaurot for flaws that can just as easily be laid at the feet of Sharlayan's ruling body and the World Sundered as well.

[Cleretic]

The only example of 'nepotism' in the Forum as far as we can see is both Louisoix and Forchenault being Forum members at some point. However, Louisoix left the Forum and Fourchenault very clearly disagrees with his policies, so it's almost definitely not nepotism or 'kids raised with parent's ideals'; more likely Fourchenault was helped out in his Forum campaign by his name but got a significant way by his own merit.

Meanwhile with the Convocation, we're two for two on confirmations of 'outgoing Convocation members directly select their successor'. It's clear that's not a rule of course, since Emet was going to rescind Hermes' recommendation, but it's very clearly the main criteria and only gone against in very weird circumstances.

EDIT: Also, Senti, fair warning: I'm putting you on ignore for your good, because you've outright said that Endwalker is deleterious to your mental health and that you're being treated for depression because of it, so you should, as has already been said in this very thread (and probably by the person treating you) step away from it. I can't get you to do that, but I'm taking what I can into my own hands; maybe if people stop engaging you in conversation that hurts you, you'll walk away from it.

[Absimiliard]

The burden of proof is on those making the claim. We have the AST quest as the only example of a Forum member being shady, the rest is conjecture. Unless someone has a particular piece of dialogue that would prove this is a problem.

They could be fully upstanding people, but it doesn't change the way those types of political systems work. Perhaps all of their goals are noble. Heck, wanting to know everything is indeed an honorable goal, as are their efforts in seeking after new forms of life and working to create new forms of magic. It's not about them doing something awful behind the scenes or what have you. It's simply how governments operate, particularly when you've a number of large, influential families that tend to occupy seats on said government.

The child is often modeled after the parent. What you teach, they will generally take in. Passing one's ideals on to what will most likely be their successor is most definitely a way of maintaining the proverbial (and literal) course.

The above said, I wouldn't qualify that as nepotism. Nepotism is an individual in power granting special favors (often in the form of government positions) to their friends, family, or other loved ones. What I speak of is merely succession of the likeminded, whether by vote, recommendation, or inheritance.

[SentioftheHoukai]

They could be fully upstanding people, but it doesn't change the way those types of political systems work. Perhaps all of their goals are noble. Heck, wanting to know everything is indeed an honorable goal, as are their efforts in seeking after new forms of life and working to create new forms of magic. It's not about them doing something awful behind the scenes or what have you. It's simply how governments operate, particularly when you've a number of large, influential families that tend to occupy seats on said government.

The child is often modeled after the parent. What you teach, they will generally take in. Passing one's ideals on to what will most likely be their successor is most definitely a way of maintaining the proverbial (and literal) course.

The above said, I wouldn't qualify that as nepotism. Nepotism is an individual in power granting special favors (often in the form of government positions) to their friends, family, or other loved ones. What I speak of is merely succession of the likeminded, whether by vote or by inheritance.

It might not fit nepotism to a T, but the end result is largely the same. As is the goal. Politicks is not a career for the selfless.

[AwesomeJr44]

Meanwhile with the Convocation, we're two for two on confirmations of 'outgoing Convocation members directly select their successor'. It's clear that's not a rule of course, since Emet was going to rescind Hermes' recommendation, but it's very clearly the main criteria and only gone against in very weird circumstances.

The previous Fandaniel suggesting Hermes is the equivalent of quitting my job (or retiring) on good terms with my boss and recommending my friend because I know he has the skills that my former boss would be looking for in a hire. That's not nepotism or electing your successor, that's giving a suggestion to your now former employer. When this happens, employers do typically look into said suggestion to see if they can get an easy hire without looking around the work force (or the planet's population in this case) for one. Emet got a recommendation from the previous Fandaniel that this guy could be a good pick, and decided to start his search there. He could have shown up to Elpis, said "nope, this guy's not the one" and the previous Fandaniel's recommendation wouldn't be worth a penny. It's not a 'main criteria' for getting a position, you have to have the qualifications to get said position. If I recommend that friend to my boss and my friend is woefully unqualified, he's not getting the job. And as much as I think Hermes was a horrible choice to be the chief overseer of Elpis, he apparently has the qualifications for that too.

EDIT: Also, Senti, fair warning: I'm putting you on ignore for your good, because you've outright said that Endwalker is deleterious to your mental health and that you're being treated for depression because of it, so you should, as has already been said in this very thread (and probably by the person treating you) step away from it. I can't get you to do that, but I'm taking what I can into my own hands; maybe if people stop engaging you in conversation that hurts you, you'll walk away from it.

Oh no. Cleretic is ignoring you Senti. Whatever will you do. Anyways...

[Lyth]

The merits of living in various fantasy nations just come down to personal preference. I'd go a step further and say that it doesn't even matter if you would enjoy living there in practice - fictional settings let you explore the 'what if-s' without consequence.

I think the reason why Amaurot in particular comes under so much scrutiny is because countless atrocities were committed in the name of restoring it to its former glory. Emet-Selch slaughtered seven worlds filled with people on the belief that his people were superior to all the others on the planet. Stories like this just expose the cracks in his nation's fragile jingoism.

Hermes' isn't just another person. He's also a member of the Convocation, and someone who Emet personally elevated to the highest office in Amaurotine society. He's also ultimately the one who not only brings about the downfall of Amaurot, but also destroys the very hope of its revival, twelve thousand years later. It's interesting to see how poorly Emet understood him, and I think that largely comes down to their conflicting approaches to expressing themselves. I think that, had Emet never gone to Elpis, Hermes would have simply towed the party line without question, as he did after the memory wipe.

Either way, it's an interesting character dynamic.

[Kozh]

It impressed (/s) me that some people decide to live on modern etheirys, instead of Amaurot, when it's still plague by murder, rape, sex traffic, racism, etc. I don't think the sundered care that much about mental health too, considering they're more concerned with day to day survival.

I'll take a bit of conformity over fearing for my life every time I step outside of the city gate. And where the fashion may be uniform, the Ancients are free to express their creativity with their concept (creation magic).

If I *had* to pick somewhere on modern etheirys, I guess sharlayan would be good enough for me. Don't like thavnair, plus people tend to forget they're basically another sharlayan all this time because of their neutrality.

[AwesomeJr44]

It impressed (/s) me that some people decide to live on modern etheirys, instead of Amaurot, when it's still plague by murder, rape, sex traffic, racism, etc. I don't think the sundered care that much about mental health too, considering they're more concerned with day to day survival.

I'll take a bit of conformity over fearing for my life every time I step outside of the city gate. And where the fashion may be uniform, the Ancients are free to express their creativity with their concept (creation magic).

If I *had* to pick somewhere on modern etheirys, I guess sharlayan would be good enough for me. Don't like thavnair, plus people tend to forget they're basically another sharlayan all this time because of their neutrality.

Assuming I can't pick Amaurot as that's not on modern etheirys, I'm inclined to agree. Sharlayan is the only nation we've visited so far that doesn't have a LOT of issues with it. If you live in Limsa, you're probably getting robbed by pirates at some point. Gridania? Gotta deal with the elementals breathing down your neck. Better hope you're not born in Ishgard as someone capable of fighting as you're probably getting sent to the front lines to fight a dragon. Sounds cool until you realize you're not the main character and thus don't have plot armor thicker than dragon scales.

[Kozh]

The merits of living in various fantasy nations just come down to personal preference. I'd go a step further and say that it doesn't even matter if you would enjoy living there in practice - fictional settings let you explore the 'what if-s' without consequence.

I think the reason why Amaurot in particular comes under so much scrutiny is because countless atrocities were committed in the name of restoring it to its former glory. Emet-Selch slaughtered seven worlds filled with people on the belief that his people were superior to all the others on the planet. Stories like this just expose the cracks in his nation's fragile jingoism.

Hermes' isn't just another person. He's also a member of the Convocation, and someone who Emet personally elevated to the highest office in Amaurotine society. He's also ultimately the one who not only brings about the downfall of Amaurot, but also destroys the very hope of its revival, twelve thousand years later. It's interesting to see how poorly Emet understood him, and I think that largely comes down to their conflicting approaches to expressing themselves. I think that, had Emet never gone to Elpis, Hermes would have simply towed the party line without question, as he did after the memory wipe.

Either way, it's an interesting character dynamic.

By that logic, the sundered world also need to be under scrutiny because venat commit atrocities against the unsundered because she thought the sundered world is better.

Again with blaming emet for everything... That man only meet hermes for what? 2-3 days? And you expect him to understand hermes so deeply that he manage to pull hermes out from his depression? Fun fact, even Hermes's coworkers are unable to do that even though they spend way, way longer with hermes. Not surprising since the man in question is prone to lash out when people try to help him.