7.0 combat should go back to the shb recipe - burst rotations aren't enjoyable

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Aligned buffs is fine as long as the jobs themselves are interesting, which is hit and miss across the jobs. I don’t think the buffs being aligned is the sole cause of these problems being mentioned. If party buffs exist they should be designed to line up or just be removed from the game. Having a 90s party buffs just doesn’t feel good since it often goes off during times where your party members can’t take great advantage of them. “But holding buffs added skill expression”. I’m sorry but I just don’t think agreeing in your static’s VC to hold X buff for after Y mechanic is interesting combat skill design, and it’s not something you can expect to do in PUG. I don’t think having a set buff window super hampers jobs being different from each other, you can design very different rotations around that still. If they feel homogenous it’s because of how their rotation is designed not only because they can no longer be 5head and hold their 90s buff because their static told them too, or press it on cooldown which is what we almost always do anyway, including in previous expansions.

If there’s a balancing issues they can fix that by changing numbers. Maybe we should move from 5% damage buffs to 3% for most jobs idk. Also I want 60s buffs like trick attack back, and single target buffs like cards and dance partner open up more interesting possibilities.

[Supersnow845]

Aligned buffs is fine as long as the jobs themselves are interesting, which is hit and miss across the jobs. I don’t think the buffs being aligned is the sole cause of these problems being mentioned. If party buffs exist they should be designed to line up or just be removed from the game. Having a 90s party buffs just doesn’t feel good since it often goes off during times where your party members can’t take great advantage of them. “But holding buffs added skill expression”. I’m sorry but I just don’t think agreeing in your static’s VC to hold X buff for after Y mechanic is interesting combat skill design, and it’s not something you can expect to do in PUG. I don’t think having a set buff window super hampers jobs being different from each other, you can design very different rotations around that still. If they feel homogenous it’s because of how their rotation is designed not only because they can no longer be 5head and hold their 90s buff because their static told them too, or press it on cooldown which is what we almost always do anyway, including in previous expansions.

If there’s a balancing issues they can fix that by changing numbers. Maybe we should move from 5% damage buffs to 3% for most jobs idk. Also I want 60s buffs like trick attack back, and single target buffs like cards and dance partner open up more interesting possibilities.

Having forced aligned buffs in this two minute window means that basically every job has to have to weave heavy burst, any CD that can be held is held, gameplay outside the burst window is stagnant because you can’t add anything to it because it will just get shoved into the burst window anyway

Look at AST for example, 5.0 AST used to reward knowledge of other classes by knowing who to give cards you couldn’t fit into your Div window because different classes had different burst windows, now it’s basically just “weave 5 times in the div window and dump all your CD’s”

Creative burst optimisation, lack of defined burst giving interesting rotational options outside the burst window and any other optimisation is gone in favour of “everyone just press your 120’s on CD and shove everything else that physically can be shoved into a burst”, this is also a problem created by the advent of every class having a gauge

[Tlamila]

Yeah honestly they've been just ruining classes and it's sad. I also don't like the current state.

The people in here saying Shb was peak combat design were not healer mains I tell you. The expansion smooth brained a lot of jobs design. And Endwalker just stuck with the trend. I liked Stormblood jobs .-.

It's true that ShB dumbed down healers, but EW was the final nail in the coffin. For AST, yeah it got the old card system taken away in ShB and that sucked for so many people. But takng away the whole nocturnal set as well as many other things basically sliced down more than half of the job identity. So I'll stay by it for healers too.

And idk, I'm one of the few who actually wasn't too much of a fan of healers in SB and also is glad the whole old aggro system is gone. DFing as healer in SB was absolutely not fun for me.

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Having forced aligned buffs in this two minute window means that basically every job has to have to weave heavy burst, any CD that can be held is held, gameplay outside the burst window is stagnant because you can’t add anything to it because it will just get shoved into the burst window anyway

Look at AST for example, 5.0 AST used to reward knowledge of other classes by knowing who to give cards you couldn’t fit into your Div window because different classes had different burst windows, now it’s basically just “weave 5 times in the div window and dump all your CD’s”

Creative burst optimisation, lack of defined burst giving interesting rotational options outside the burst window and any other optimisation is gone in favour of “everyone just press your 120’s on CD and shove everything else that physically can be shoved into a burst”, this is also a problem created by the advent of every class having a gauge

Monk, which is topping the meta right now, has its highest damage attack it builds up to hit outside the party buff window. (You can overcap Nadi to line up phantom rush with buffs but that’s only a gain on certain fights). And then you have a job like black mage whose rotation isn’t designed around burst and 2 min and still does good damage. This goes back to my point that you can still design jobs to be unique and that I don’t see why coordinated buff windows is that much of a collar.

For AST for example, I just don’t think divination should be a move they have. They should just get rid of it. Meanwhile cards, like I said before, are an example of a single target buff with flexibility. Once you draw your card you have ample time to actually cast it and great AST players will know when to give it to DPS based on what they are observing.

The solution is not to bring back jank party buff cooldowns, it’s to give less jobs party buffs and/or tone down their buff %. I think it’s fine for dancer to maintain their buffs for instance

[Bhearil]

Monk is topling the meta because its damage is busted(and despite so is extremely unpopular), not because the kit is good, and lets be honest the reason why BLM has never been on a real bad spot is kinda an open secret by now

It is true though that the 2min burst setup is boring as hell and hampers the already limited creativity of the jobs

[Amh_Wilzuun]

Monk is topling the meta because its damage is busted(and despite so is extremely unpopular), not because the kit is good, and lets be honest the reason why BLM has never been on a real bad spot is kinda an open secret by now

It is true though that the 2min burst setup is boring as hell and hampers the already limited creativity of the jobs

I’m not saying that Monk isn’t busted, just the fact that it can be busted while having its biggest damage chakra phase outside of raid buffs shows that raid buffs aren’t necessarily a massive collar on job design and a lot of these problems can be fixed by changing numbers and just designing jobs better. And my point on black mage wasn’t about yoshi p, just on how the job’s rotation is designed to where they aren’t really worrying about raid buffs and instead optimizing their own damage output sustained over the entire point. This runs contrary to 2 min buffs meaning that every job has to be designed a certain way

[Amh_Wilzuun]

The real issue isn’t that buffs actually line up with things for once, it’s that there are too many party buffs right now and too many of them have that 5% buff. The solution is to tone down or rework some of these and remove some of them altogether. That way the buff window isn’t as crazy as it is right now. Some propositions:

-Remove AST’s divination as it’s just a remnant from ShB. Instead buff the cards as those buffs are spread across the whole fight

-Reduce MNK’s brotherhood to a 3% buff since it’s a similar cooldown to Reaper’s Arcane Circle which is also 3%

-Right now DRG has three different buffs it is has to press during burst, in 7.0 one of the skills they should cull should be Battle Litany. They already have a unique-ish party buff in Dragon Sight so battle litany should just be a buff attached to that if anything that applies to you and your partner. To account for this the skill should be unlocked slightly earlier or battle litany should be a trait unlocked at a higher level.

-Remove Embolden. I personally don’t find it to be an interesting skill at all and I find it slightly jank to use in conjuction with manafication.

I’m sure there are other ideas people could add too.

[Bhearil]

I’m not saying that Monk isn’t busted, just the fact that it can be busted while having its biggest damage chakra phase outside of raid buffs shows that raid buffs aren’t necessarily a massive collar on job design and a lot of these problems can be fixed by changing numbers and just designing jobs better. And my point on black mage wasn’t about yoshi p, just on how the job’s rotation is designed to where they aren’t really worrying about raid buffs and instead optimizing their own damage output sustained over the entire point. This runs contrary to 2 min buffs meaning that every job has to be designed a certain way

When the numbers are high enough you could have a WAR toppiling dps charts spamming Tomahawk only but thats a moot point, the fact that Monk is functional despite being outside of the raid buffs timer is due to how inflated the numbers are, something that is extremely easy to do, problem is to make gameplay engaging enough to people say "man I love to play *insert job*" and not "I play this because is busted and a no brainer for progression"

[Amh_Wilzuun]

When the numbers are high enough you could have a WAR toppiling dps charts spamming Tomahawk only but thats a moot point, the fact that Monk is functional despite being outside of the raid buffs timer is due to how inflated the numbers are, something that is extremely easy to do, problem is to make gameplay engaging enough to people say "man I love to play *insert job*" and not "I play this because is busted and a no brainer for progression"

I don’t see how this is a rebuttal to the points I made after rereading this a couple of times, I’d go back and read the posts I made so you can see the substance of the points I was making… those problems you just mentioned can be fixed by changing a few numbers

[Bhearil]

I don’t see how this is a rebuttal to the points I made after rereading this a couple of times, I’d go back and read the posts I made so you can see the substance of the points I was making… those problems you just mentioned can be fixed by changing a few numbers

I agree with most, but there a glaring issues with most of the jobs on which the "let's give them some extra potencies" are only bandaids to hide the real problem.

There are some cases that is only a matter of values, but on many there's not.

Sitting on a throne doest make you a ruler only proves that you have an arse, same case with potencies if the kit is not working properly