Many Savage PFs are barring PLD and WAR, anyone know what's going on?

[krisatriya]

Here's my take as a PLD main on defensive utility issues that a lot of player complains about.

Based on data, it's pretty obvious PLD always take more damage than any other tanks due to lack of self mitigation. But something that most PLD players ignore is the usage of intervention which is one of the most busted mitigation tool that rarely ever used by a lot of PLD players ( Intervention gives 20% + 10% mitigation with 250x4 potency regen ). If you give Intervention to your Co-tank on every tankbuster you would be surprised by how much less damage he is going to take over the course of the fight.

Looking at the damage taken that my co-tank and myself took during P7S. My co-tank (GNB) took 1.5M damage, while I took 2.1M damage for a total of 3.6M damage. Looking at this it seems like me as a PLD took 30% more damage than I should have. But after comparing it to other clear run of DRK and GNB pair, where the DRK took 2M damage, and the GNB took 1.9M damage for 3.9M damage total.
When you are raiding it will felt like the PLD is taking so much more damage than the other tank, but a PLD that kept giving Intervention to the co-tank makes the DoT so much more bearable for the other one so much so that my GNB co-tank requires almost no oGCD healing from my healers and so they just need to focus on giving me their oGCD. While I don't really have much to say for other tank pairing but from seeing my AST friend POV on her healing a DRK and GNB pairing, both of them requires healing on every tankbuster.

To emphasize how busted a single Intervention is. An unmitigated P7S tankbuster DoT is 33k x 5 (165k ), if you give a Intervention on it then you would be reducing the damage to 25k x 5 ( 125k ). A 40k damage reduction on your co-tank on every single tankbuster. If done on every single tankbuster on P7S then you are going to reduce the DoT damage on your co-tank is taking by 240k.

But in the end I still switched to DRK because of p8s DPS check

soo its mean PLD fated to be a co tank ? or can PLD be main tank ? kind of sad cos of this news bout PLD.

[Crater]

The same applies to pretty much every other tank that forgets they can use their short duration mitigation on someone else. Granted paladin is the only one that can put Intervention on someone else and then use Shelltron for themselves.

I don't think it's a coincidence or an accident that WAR and PLD - the two lower-damage tanks - are able to make strong use of this.

PLD is able to use (Rampart/Sentinel-buffed) Intervention and Sheltron at the same time to get 28% mitigation and 1000 potency of healing on one tank, and 15% direct mitigation, an additional 20% Block on the initial hit (which is 33%-50% of the total damage, even if Block doesn't affect the DoT), and 1000 potency on themselves.
WAR is able to use Nascent Flash instead of Bloodwhetting to give 19% mitigation, a 400 potency shield, and 1600 potency of healing to one tank, while still giving themself a 400 potency shield and 1600 potency of healing.


It's a drastic difference in defensive power that the early prog/speedkill meta tanks just don't have, and I wouldn't be completely surprised if, by the end of the tier, there turns out to be some appreciation for those tanks from more mid-level groups, even if the high-end raiders are still mostly just mad about DPS. (Though it's still more likely that the high-end opinions simply continue to trickle down into the community at large.)

[esra01]

soo its mean PLD fated to be a co tank ? or can PLD be main tank ? kind of sad cos of this news bout PLD.

Since this tier is just full of double tankbuster with bleed, I think PLD MT is a bit better. Since the one that would be taking the brunt of the damage is your ST, that is going to take the bleed and auto attack damage at the same time. With Intervention your ST should be able to handle the boss auto + bleed aftermath much more comfier

[CKNovel]

Because they are behind enough on dps to legitimately be a detriment to the group.

More than damage, DRK and GNB have wonderful on mitigation compared to PLD and in certain cases Warrior:
-Shake it off&Divine veil are amazing but struggles against multi hit raidwide. They're strong against physical raidwide and 2/3 consecutive raidwide thought, how much physical raidwide do we have ?
-Hallowed Ground is the worst invulnerability. On use it's the best but in the overrall content it's the least flexible Invuln. In comparision, GNB is at 1HP but doesn't take damage for 10 seconds and heals itself during this time. PLD start at full, end at full and if you're -in the wrong timing, your self healing will be wasted.
-Holy Sheltron&Intervention are on gauge, on downtime you won't build Oath gauge. Also, I'm not sure, but apparently PLD cannot parry when stunned?
-Cover is dead.
-Clemency is never used and is a DPS loss when you want the most DPS as possible.
-PLD doesn't have anything like Dark Mind, Equilibrium or Camouflage.

Bonus: PLD gets a ranged burst phase but even a Gunbreaker would have to try to loose melee uptime.
Warrior is behind but have the best defensive, PLD is behind on every ground.

[RatCopter]

WAR/PLD don't do enough damage, and PF DPS aren't good enough to carry.

[Oizen]

PLD deserves more damage imo, WAR doesn't.
Not without toning down its absurd defensives to be more inline with the rest anyway. The only other alternative would be massive buffs to the other 3 tanks defensive capabilities as well as their party shielding moves which doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

[fulminating]

PLD deserves more damage imo, WAR doesn't.
Not without toning down its absurd defensives to be more inline with the rest anyway. The only other alternative would be massive buffs to the other 3 tanks defensive capabilities as well as their party shielding moves which doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

They should tone down drk and gnb's defensives then, warrior is only insane in dungeons, which is content that doesn't matter. HoC, HoL, Oblation dark missionary are all absurdly good for being on such high damage tanks. Realistically there's no justification for any tank being significantly higher or lower damage than the others, with the possible exception of paladin which ought to be higher given the relative difficulty in optimising it.

[RylaBee]

PLD is able to use (Rampart/Sentinel-buffed) Intervention and Sheltron at the same time to get 28% mitigation and 1000 potency of healing on one tank, and 15% direct mitigation, an additional 20% Block on the initial hit (which is 33%-50% of the total damage, even if Block doesn't affect the DoT), and 1000 potency on themselves.
WAR is able to use Nascent Flash instead of Bloodwhetting to give 19% mitigation, a 400 potency shield, and 1600 potency of healing to one tank, while still giving themself a 400 potency shield and 1600 potency of healing.

It's a drastic difference in defensive power that the early prog/speedkill meta tanks just don't have, and I wouldn't be completely surprised if, by the end of the tier, there turns out to be some appreciation for those tanks

I would be completely suprised, if any groups gave a rats ass about one tank giving 15%, 20% or 25% mitigation to another.
Tank survival is 0/1 game, you either survived, and it doesn't matter how much was mitigated or you didn't.

Secondly, you seem to be ignoring, that GNB can provide partner tank with Heart of Corundum and DRK with Oblation and Blackest Night.

There USED to be time, when PLD's Intervention was unique ability, but it was completely erased (homogenized) in Endwalker and now all tanks have it, in one form or another with superficial differences.

The only special thing left on on PLD is:
* Cover - extremely situational and encounters are never built around it
* Passage of Arms - situational, but at least of some use
* Clemency - if you are thinking of spending GCDs in savage clear attempts on healing, better keep it to yourself

For Savage prog clears, DPS and survival via your own mitigations and invulns (pref. on short cd) are the only thing that matters.
PLD is coming of as a 3rd and 4th wheel (on a bike) in in both categories.

Current (8th Sep) number of logged clears of P8 door boss:

Gunbreaker 4,472
Dark Knight 4,737
Paladin 267
Warrior 847

That is 2.58% presence of the PLD in the clears.

Do you perhaps see any pattern?

Very high dps groups may opt to take WAR for the sake of extra invulns during fight, which can help cheese some mechanics or unburden healers in critical moments.
Only fraction of very tight and proffesional raiders clear with PLD, just for the heck of it.

How do you think anxious and mostly less skilled ppl in PFs, are going to look at the prospect, of spending their time trying that?

[Supersnow845]

PLD deserves more damage imo, WAR doesn't.
Not without toning down its absurd defensives to be more inline with the rest anyway. The only other alternative would be massive buffs to the other 3 tanks defensive capabilities as well as their party shielding moves which doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

WAR is underpowered defensively in raids, dark missionary and heart of light are better than divine veil and shake it off because they last the entire duration, not just till the shield cracks, on top of that in situations like the DOT busters this tier while bloodwhetting gives self healing it’s actual upfront mitigation is weaker than HOC and HS (and DRK has two extra defensives) and the self heal cannot compensate for the higher DOT potency

Bloodwhetting should be changed to have a higher upfront mitigation but only activate healing once per GCD, not once per enemy per GCD, that would fix the “healers aren’t needed when WAR is the tank” in dungeons, and buff WAR’d raid survivability

Both PLD and WAR need a damage buff, PLD should be first in damage not last, it has the most complex tank rotation

[Undeadfire]

Both PLD and WAR need a damage buff, PLD should be first in damage not last, it has the most complex tank rotation

Mainly a rotation haul on Paladin, damage buffing to a GNB won't suddenly make it amazing, GNB/DRK will still be picked over with their capability to sync raid buffs, while Paladin has to essentially skip 2 Atonements (which is a DPS loss) to stay synced, and lacks burst capability compared to SHBs Pld.