Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[WellGramarye]

I'm not understanding why G'raha going back in time only as far as Stormblood, and creating a new path of time only from Stormblood onward, should alter events at Elpis at all.




They happen the same way they always have: we, the living WoL of diverged timeline stream B, arrive via a time portal and participate in those events, even if the observer is in timeline A. It's the same single past that always existed and continues to be shared by the two timelines from before they separated.

The "old" and "new" timelines do not happen one after the other. From their divergence point onwards they occur side-by-side.

I drew a picture, hopefully my handwriting is legible. You might have to view original size if the forums shrink it.

The bolded text in reply, is a paradox and cannot happen. In Post 8UC's Point of View, the WoL cannot have gone to Elpis, because they were dead before those events could have happened.

[Iscah]

The bolded text in reply, is a paradox and cannot happen. In Post 8UC's Point of View, the WoL cannot have gone to Elpis, because they were dead before those events could have happened.

If that's your response to my bolded text then you have not read my bolded text.

I did not say, and have never said, that the dead WoL from the 8UE timeline went to Elpis. On the contrary, I specifically said our living WoL. The one we play in Endwalker. They are the only WoL to visit Elpis because there only needs to be one version of events at Elpis.

It only doesn't compute because you're trying to place my explanation onto your completely different diagram of events where for some reason (you still haven't explained) you've decided it is necessary to start the timeline over from scratch instead of only developing a second stream from Stormblood onwards.

My explanation does not work on your two parallel lines, and I cannot personally see the sense in that model.

So, yes, the time travel does not work if you insist on your model. That's why I'm attempting to explain a different model where it does work.

[EaraGrace]

The issue here is that sundered beings are, at least some of them, reincarnations of those very same Ancients the Ascians wanted to bring back. Don't need to spoiler tag it here, but the PC is a sundered reincarnation of Azem; in order to get the Ancient "Azem" back, the PC would have to be killed and their soul returned to an Ancient's body. Then of course there's the matter of people whose souls aren't reincarnations of Ancients... if the working theory of the cycle of souls has any weight to it, they'd all need to be killed and their souls filtered back into the aether of an Ancient's soul; whatever's left can go back to the Lifestream to be used in the Aether Farm plan.

Except Emet directly states that post Rejoining the Sources inhabitants would be the ones used in the Aether farm plan. These would be fully rejoined souls equal to any Ancient. So the question remains, why would he do so if animals were a reasonable alternative? Bitterness? Maybe. But given fake Hyth comments that Emet hasn’t erred from the original plan I’d say no.

[WellGramarye]

If that's your response to my bolded text then you have not read my bolded text.

I did not say, and have never said, that the dead WoL from the 8UE timeline went to Elpis. On the contrary, I specifically said our living WoL. The one we play in Endwalker.

It only doesn't compute because you're trying to place my explanation onto your completely different diagram of events where for some reason (you still haven't explained) you've decided it is necessary to start the timeline over from scratch instead of only developing a second stream from Stormblood onwards.

My explanation does not work on your two parallel lines, and I cannot personally see the sense in that model.

So, yes, the time travel does not work if you insist on your model. That's why I'm attempting to explain a different model where it does work.

Firstly.
If the WoL is dead, they can't go to Elpis. Can we agree on this?

Secondly.
If the WoL doesn't go to Elpis. The sundering still happens.

Disagreeing with this, means you are advocating a paradox. If the WoL doesn't go to Elpis, then how does the Sundering happen, which creates the WoL in the first place. This is a paradox. The paradox means that the 8UC can't happen.

So you have a choice. 8UC doesn't exist, or paradox doesn't exist.

Aside: bolded stuff made me giggle. Shroedingers WoL.

[Iscah]

Firstly.
If the WoL is dead, they can't go to Elpis. Can we agree on this?

Secondly.
If the WoL doesn't go to Elpis. The sundering still happens.

First statement, yes. I have never claimed otherwise.

Second statement, irrelevant to my argument.

There is no version of Elpis where our WoL doesn't go there.

There is no separate version of Elpis waiting for the 8UE WoL to arrive.

If the 8UE and Endwalker timelines are branches, Elpis is on the trunk of the tree. It happens once.

An observer from the 8UE timeline branch cannot detect the Endwalker timeline branch, but they still both exist next to each other and have always existed alongside each other, because G'raha split the timeline in Shadowbringers. There was no period where the timeline only had one branch and was waiting for the other to materialise.

The 8UE timeline does not need to reach the point where the time machine is invented before its effects are felt.

The paradox only exists on your parallel lines, which I disagree with.

[Jandor]

The 8UC world doesn't have its own extensive history, everything that happens before Stormblood is the same for both worlds.

[Thoosa]

My problems with it:

They built up Zodiarc for 10 years, we kill him easily and the response was very much “yeah, whatever.”

By making Garlemald a complete ruin, we didn’t get to see any of their tech, cars, etc. Felt like a wasted opportunity after building it up for years. We wasted time doing quests for people who just said they hated us.

Introducing time travel, ugh…

Introducing a big baddy at the very late stages of the saga who has pretty silly reasons for wanting to wipe out the universe.

Also so much of it wasted on escort quests and inconsequential things.

Fandaniel wasn’t remotely likeable and didn’t have any of the charm or depth as emet-selch. I just found him really annoying. I felt Zenos boring too but he somewhat redeemed himself at the end.

Imo it should have been two expansions to end the story and they could have fleshed things out a bit more, or they should have cut a lot of the pointless hide and seek/escort quests and talking/finding a million NPCs - the pacing was all over the place.

It feels like they were told they couldn’t make two more expansions so they would have to cram everything into one.

[WellGramarye]

First statement, yes. I have never claimed otherwise.

Second statement, irrelevant to my argument.

There is no version of Elpis where our WoL doesn't go there.

There is no separate version of Elpis waiting for the 8UE WoL to arrive.

If the 8UE and Endwalker timelines are branches, Elpis is on the trunk of the tree. It happens once.

An observer from the 8UE timeline branch cannot detect the Endwalker timeline branch, but they still both exist next to each other and have always existed alongside each other, because G'raha split the timeline in Shadowbringers. There was no period where the timeline only had one branch and was waiting for the other to materialise.

The 8UE timeline does not need to reach the point where the time machine is invented before its effects are felt.

The paradox only exists on your parallel lines, which I disagree with.

You are only counting Graha's time travel as the only factor that changed the future, but us going to Elpis also changes the future. While it is not a major shift, we impart knowledge that was not known before, and return with knowledge we didn't know before. This time loop cannot exist in a world where we are dead at any point before the end of the convergence. From the point we step foot in Elpis, history is forever changed from that moment, even if the shift isn't world shaking or defining.

There HAS to be a version of Elpis where we never go there, and if there is a version where we never go there, there HAS to be a sundering, for us to exist, for us to be able to have the option to go there in the first place.

The 8UC world doesn't have its own extensive history, everything that happens before Stormblood is the same for both worlds.

While their histories are 99% the same, they are not 100% the same by dint that we travel to Elpis, at the same time where we would be dead in the 8UC.

[Iscah]

You are only counting Graha's time travel as the only factor that changed the future, but us going to Elpis also changes the future.

I disagree on that, on two levels.

Firstly, I prefer to see it as that there was no prior WoL-less version of Elpis. It just always happened the way we saw it, with a time traveller appearing and sparking the whole thing off.

Secondly, even if it does require a "first time around" before the WoL changes it to the current version of events, my interpretation of the timeline (Y-shaped diverging at Shadowbringers) still means that there is no period where our WoL does not exist to make that trip and set things in motion. Elpis is still in the pre-diverged part of the timeline and still only requires one visitor from somewhere in the future.

Additionally, it is indicated that our trip to Elpis has already happened before we personally travel there to experience it. Hydaelyn is already aware of the time loop and its looming resolution, and Argos already trusts us.

This time loop cannot exist in a world where we are dead at any point before the end of the convergence.

No it doesn't. As long as there is a point at some time in the future where we are available to go back to Elpis, we can go back.

There is never a time when we are dead in both timelines, and even if there was, our continued involvement in Elpis would prove that there must be a third undiscovered timeline out there as well.

While their histories are 99% the same, they are not 100% the same by dint that we travel to Elpis, at the same time where we would be dead in the 8UC.

Only by your theory.

By mine, they are 100% the same. They are a single event.

[Jandor]

While their histories are 99% the same, they are not 100% the same by dint that we travel to Elpis, at the same time where we would be dead in the 8UC.

Elpis is shared history, we set off from after the split, but we travel to a point before the split. It doesn't matter that the 8UC WoL died, because our WoL was alive and able to go.

I drew a (very basic) picture.