Female Hrothgar as a playable race. Show your support!

[reivaxe]

On a 2nd look, the 1st picture doesn't look THAT bad. I can almost visualize a Decent Feline face out of it.
But the other 2, no thanks. They just arnt doing it for me.

It's not a "Do you like it" post.
It's there because, from a purely analytical standpoint, these were the kinda things I saw that actually took into account all the ways in which Hrothgar looked like human males and flipped them to female standards. Even the Korean art some of you like is just stylized-cat-heads-with-long-hair, completely disregarding the human elements found in the Hrothgar face. Such logic to me is flawed as they're not Khajiit, their human face structures are what allow them to emote like others and wear what headgear they do have.

I just hope we don't get another situation of whatever that meme is i'm fine.
Like can't we have mommy hrothgar that look like the one designed by Karmaho(@kkron_m on twitter) because they look so good....

That meme is feminist virtue signaling, and iirc was made by some woman Journalist who doesn't know anything about games around the time of "Tropes vs Women in video games" days.
The only MMO I know of with an Orc sure AF doesn't make their females look like supermodels.


Chasing the internet head pats from people who only care about pushing their agendas is a sure fire way to disappoint many. Raging against and worrying about sexual dimorphism just seems like such a petty play when you realize we live in the real world and you can surmise that people play males and females for different reasons and look for different things in males and females.

If you want something because you want to play it, want it for that. Tieing it to anything just because it would subvert perceived norms is weak imo.

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

--It's not a "Do you like it" post.
It's there because, from a purely analytical standpoint, these were the kinda things I saw that actually took into account all the ways in which Hrothgar looked like human males and flipped them to female standards. Even the Korean art some of you like is just stylized-cat-heads-with-long-hair, completely disregarding the human elements found in the Hrothgar face. Such logic to me is flawed as they're not Khajiit, their human face structures are what allow them to emote like others and wear what headgear they do have.
--That meme is feminist virtue signaling

--Its called "An Opinion".....everyone is allowed to have one.
And many opinions in this thread have supported the idea that we would like to see Actual Feline people, both Male & Female. The Males have actual Feline Heads; with Snout and Muzzle. We want the same for Females. Preferably not a small Housecat, and definitely not a smooshed in Human Face.

--Regardless of where that Meme Comes from, its the perfect illustration of what isn't wanted for Female Hrothgar, and its a Tiered and Lazy trope seen in alot of things where a Beastman Race only has Beast-MEN, while the Females are just Humans with a couple features from animals like the Tail, ears and stuff, as seen by Neko Catgirls...or in this case Miqote. And the AuRa
We already have Miqote and AuRa if you want to play a Human-looking Character with a few animal/beast features. From a Design Standpoint, making Hrothgar Females look more human-like makes ZERO sense.

I can, Have, and will continue to argue that. Whatever the devs end up doing in the end, is purely their decision. But if they at all looking for Player feedback, my Voice is, they should look Animalistic, Just, Like the Males. Dont go halfway then puss out...if you were going to make a Beastrace, you should follow through and make a Beastrace. Both Males and Females should have Animal Faces & Heads

[Pip_Chick]

We already have Miqote and AuRa if you want to play a Human-looking Character with a few animal/beast features. From a Design Standpoint, making Hrothgar Females look more human-like makes ZERO sense.

I can, Have, and will continue to argue that. Whatever the devs end up doing in the end, is purely their decision. But if they at all looking for Player feedback, my Voice is, they should look Animalistic, Just, Like the Males. Dont go halfway then puss out...if you were going to make a Beastrace, you should follow through and make a Beastrace. Both Males and Females should have Animal Faces & Heads

Agree! The relevation of the meme to the subject put beside. As much as we want to stop worrying about their appearance, the truth of the matter is that is a real concern that males would look like a big cool beast while the females are not given the same option. There are a lot of these instances, especially in the eastern style media.

What I am trying to say is that we don't want this:



But do want this:



And the only way we can show it is by saying it. Cause I have looked and read through this and other threads, Twitter, Facebook, Art communities, etc. and the people who want them to be like this are in the majority, with the people that want them to be like every other female in this game (Excluding Fem Roe cause they seem to have a hate boner for them) for the sake of popularity, which is a non-issue, they will never be as popular as Miquo'te, Au'ra and Viera, cause they are a niche beast race! And completely missing the point, these people don't even entertain the idea of changing to them, or at most say that they will try them on an alt, but when confronted by people who want to be them presenting what they want to play as (since this is their last chance). They choose to drown them and call them the vocal minority without realising that they are the vocal minority! I want female Hrothgar to be beastly cause that is what makes sense, that would give visual coherence and the thought of them having flat faces puts me off, I don't want to play as a taller Miquo'te, nor do I want to play as a Furry roe, I want female Hrothgar to be a beast warrior woman!

[Zanarkand-Ronso]

People can like their cute petite waifus all they want, there's nothing wrong with that. But I'd really like if they stopped trying to frame people who want beast female characters as insincere and politically motivated.

Frankly until this thread, Ive never heard of wanting Real Female Beastmen to be a Political thing...pretty bizarre XD

What I am trying to say is that we don't want this:



But do want this:



And the only way we can show it is by saying it!

One-Hundred-and-Ten-Percent.
ALL of this, and then some.

[reivaxe]

And the only way we can show it is by saying it. Cause I have looked and read through this and other threads, Twitter, Facebook, Art communities, etc. and the people who want them to be like this are in the majority, with the people that want them to be like every other female in this game (Excluding Fem Roe cause they seem to have a hate boner for them) for the sake of popularity, which is a non-issue, they will never be as popular as Miquo'te, Au'ra and Viera, cause they are a niche beast race! And completely missing the point, these people don't even entertain the idea of changing to them, or at most say that they will try them on an alt, but when confronted by people who want to be them presenting what they want to play as (since this is their last chance). They choose to drown them and call them the vocal minority without realising that they are the vocal minority! I want female Hrothgar to be beastly cause that is what makes sense, that would give visual coherence and the thought of them having flat faces puts me off, I don't want to play as a taller Miquo'te, nor do I want to play as a Furry roe, I want female Hrothgar to be a beast warrior woman!

Popularity is mostly about execution of design, not concept. You could easily make Female draggos far less popular by making design choices that aren't appealing, even if you keep them small.
Not trying to make the most popular thing is one thing, using that as an excuse to make something utterly unpopular for a game is another.
As for online people discussing this topic, I don't think there's much to say. Many don't care about them because they want to play them, they simply didn't like the gender-limits on races. Most assume they will look like fur covered Femroe or like the outdated 20 year old models in the FF game that had female Ronso. To put it simply, most people assumed they would be something they have no interest in using, which is why the hype has been the complete opposite of Viera Males.
The devs, however, don't have the luxury of thinking that way. They don't have to try to make everything "the next Miqote!" popularity wise, but they only have a finite amount of time and resources that they can throw at things and have to try to make them appealing to some decent amount of people. IMO the "Beast" features for Hrothgar are the "Horns and Scales" of Draggos and the "Tall and beefy" of Roe. It's the actual thing that defines them. So no, I don't think they will be full human looking ... but just like how Femroe aren't nearly as big-n-beefy as Roebros, I don't think they're gonna be AS beast presenting as the males. And just like Draggos I don't think their stature is gonna be much of a factor in visually connecting them either.

IMO, they will be the "Most Animal looking women" in the game ... to what extent that makes them look like the males or HOW that's represented is a complete question mark to me beyond what they have shown. Hell, I could see them deciding to make them look like furrier Mithra/ Miqote head-wise so that they can use all headgear and hair ... only to turn around and give them digitigrade feet and limit their footwear to stuff that's got a high heel because someone on the team presented YP with a concept that impressed him, just like someone on the team got them more interested in the idea of Jpop idols for Draggo girls.

W/e they end up as, I'm sure it's gonna be more animal looking than any other female. That's all that really matters to me, personally. I don't need them to have the same body shape or the same levels of animal features or the same representations of those features. At the end of the day, it's their game. It's not their job to smash perceived gender norms in games, nor to satisfy some subjective levels of acceptable sexual dimorphism.

[Pip_Chick]

Popularity is mostly about execution of design, not concept.

Please don't redefine words, the meaning of popularity, conform to the dictionary is: "The state or condition of being liked, admired, or supported by many people."
"Not trying to make the most popular thing is one thing, using that as an excuse to make something utterly unpopular for a game is another"? You don't know how popular they will be until they come out that is an objective fact, as well as that beast races are a niche not everyone enjoys. YP already said that popularity is not something they are concerned with when making this race, so why not go all out and make them the female version of the Warrior archetype like the males? I don't see why is there such fear in this. Female Lalafel aren't taller or more feminine, they have almost the same body as the males (If not identical, I seriously can't tell). With the Roegadin you have the somewhat standard-looking bodybuilders, which is your only variation from the norm. So why not let Hrothgar be different, like the males (but with more feminine features)?
I agree, a lot of people didn't play Viera and Hrothgar in the beginning because of the gear problems. But just this year SE did try and rectify this in order to make hair more accessible. And that is why if you check the race analytics at endgame Viera is almost double in numbers than Elezen males and almost as many as Miquo'te males. And that is for both Genders, not to say that even Hrothgar succeeds Female Elezen and both Roe's female and male! These races are liked for their appearance and features, the restrictions are the problems! Now that they are slowly fixed, people go back to them!
" I don't think they're gonna be AS beast presenting as the males." That is where I hope you are wrong. Cause the solution to make them more feminine is not to take away from the beastly features, but to make their bodies more feminine and that can easily be solved by: giving them a more feminine shape. Just like you said with the faces, the base is not a human face, but a feline one with human elements to create ease of reading expressions.
And the warrior archetype. A lot of people when I say this think of the stereotypical muscular barbarian that looks like he eats steroids every 2 hours. And so think that I am advocating for females to be that big and impossibly muscular for the female anatomy. But what I am asking for instead is the "Female warrior archetype", think of: Wonderwoman, Valkyrie, The female Vikings and even the female Hun warriors.
There are tons of good interpretations of strong warrior women, why should we just narrow our view to the already existing types for the sake of "will they be popular?" since that is a non-issue, this is a subscription MMO and the items on the cash shop as well as in-game fit all races and there is no incentive to pick one race over the other on the simple basis that is all aesthetic.

[Silverbane]

But do want this:

I want female Hrothgar to be beastly cause that is what makes sense ...

Your example shows a lizard woman with breasts. So to me, "what makes sense" isn't expressed by that example.

I like breasts as much as the next person, but felines of all sizes only have visible breasts when nursing. It would make sense, then, for fem Hrothgar PCs to not have much if any visible breast -- as a I posted previously, the slider could go from "none" to "A-cup." And I don't see much use in fem Hrothgar being just another hourglass body with fur and a different head.

It's not like women need large breasts to be beautiful, after all.
There's some very beautiful small-breasted ballet dancers out there, for example.
If fem Viera bodies are modeled on super-models, maybe fem Hrothgar could be modeled on ballerinas.

[Pip_Chick]

Your example shows a lizard woman with breasts. So to me, "what makes sense" isn't expressed by that example.

I like breasts as much as the next person, but felines of all sizes only have visible breasts when nursing. It would make sense, then, for fem Hrothgar PCs to not have much if any visible breast -- as a I posted previously, the slider could go from "none" to "A-cup." And I don't see much use in fem Hrothgar being just another hourglass body with fur and a different head.

It's not like women need large breasts to be beautiful, after all.
There's some very beautiful small-breasted ballet dancers out there, for example.
If fem Viera bodies are modeled on super-models, maybe fem Hrothgar could be modeled on ballerinas.

1) You totally missed the point of my argument. You went for the fact that they are lizard women, not feline (and apparently totally missed the Khajit which are feline). When I said about what makes sense I was trying to show that I along with others don't want them to look like children or a totally different species (as seen in the other pictures that I showed).

2) What do you have against big breasts? Like I get that felines in the wild act like that, but even with the males their body, arms and legs are distinctly modelled to mimic human anatomy. So I don't see why they shouldn't have them. And sorry but if you want women with small breasts that are modelled after ballerinas you already have them: Midlander, Elezen, Miquo'te and Au'ra. They all have smaller breasts compared to Female Viera and Roegadin and their bodies are much smaller and slender. Besides Making Female Hrothgar look like ballerinas wouldn't make sense when put next to the males that clearly fill the "warrior" archetype. I only see it fit and makes sense to have Hrothgar on both sides of the gender fill that archetype.

3) Not saying you are wrong, don't want to attack you. Just that your interpretation doesn't make sense to me.

[Silverbane]

if you want women with small breasts that are modelled after ballerinas you already have them: Midlander, Elezen, Miquo'te and Au'ra.

Not hardly. So I'm guessing you don't know many professional ballerinas.
You want fem Hrothgar to be feline warriors, then giving them the strong, agile, flexible, svelte, lithe bodies of pro ballerinas is a fitting option. After all, with the exception of those lazy and semi-useless male lions, felines are generally strong, agile, flexible, svelte, and lithe.

BTW, my spouse would find your accusation that I have something against large breasts pretty ludicrous, as would anyone who looked at my 12 alts. But I think it's high time FFXIV expanded our options for creating great-looking fem characters, and not by just plopping a cat head and some fur on yet another sex-doll body.

[Pip_Chick]

Not hardly. So I'm guessing you don't know many professional ballerinas.
You want fem Hrothgar to be feline warriors, then giving them the strong, agile, flexible, svelte, lithe bodies of pro ballerinas is a fitting option. After all, with the exception of those lazy and semi-useless male lions, felines are generally strong, agile, flexible, svelte, and lithe.

Ow, now I see what you mean, yeah that makes sense, though still, my first instinct wouldn't be to go toward ballerinas, more towards gymnasts.

BTW, my spouse would find your accusation that I have something against large breasts pretty ludicrous, as would anyone who looked at my 12 alts. But I think it's high time FFXIV expanded our options for creating great-looking fem characters, and not by just plopping a cat head and some fur on yet another sex-doll body.

Tell your spouse that I am sorry. I felt a little bit into catty behaviour there, just don't like when people say negative things about big breasts or invalidate them on the basis that smaller ones are more appropriate for an athletic build. Cause I myself have them on the bigger side and my job is in the sport field (all be it, not balley) felt a little bit called out. I still should not have said that, I apologise.