Tales from the Dawn

[Kozh]

Graha only ended up on the First because at the time of his jump into the past, the First and the Source had already been merged together due to the U8C. Graha's jump to the past is 300 years into the future after Stormblood. When he went back in time, he went to a pre-merged world and it landed him 100 years in the past (from Stormblood) on the First.

Actually, while g'raha time travel is normal time travel, by that point the first hasn't rejoined with the source since. At least not completely. That's why they need omega technology, since it is the one that allows him to jump from source dimension to the First dimension.

Meaning it was written in stone, there was nothing we could do to change what was going to happen. Any interactions we were going to have were supposed to happen.

True that it won't change anything, but that's the point of ShB time travel. G'raha couldn't change his timeline history, but that results in branching timeline. Logically, us using the same technology as him should also result in branching timeline. Well actually it kinda did, but venat force it to become a time loop instead by making us the catalyst of sundering.

Inb4 someone say "Alexander is time loop!", yes but it also happens only to him and his surroundings. Plus it's intentional on his part. When we speak to him, he said that from countless alternatives timeline, he consider the current timeline (back in HW) is the most optimal.

[Iscah]

I ran out of posts last night and was trying to edit this all into my last post higher up, but reposting it now.

If Graha does not go back in time, and the events of Shadowbringers never happen, we live within the 8UC timeline, in which WE DIE. If we die at that point in time (the end of Stormblood) we are not ALIVE to go back in time to warn Venat and have our adventures in Elpis.

The time loop in Shadowbringers does not require our 8UC counterpart to travel back to Elpis, because the events in Elpis sit outside of the span of time altered by G'raha's actions.

All that matters in the 8UC timeline is that the Sundering happened in the past.

The end result of Shadowbringers is that the 8UC timeline is bypassed and the Elpis time loop continues along the "new" timeline that, from a whole-of-time viewpoint, has always existed alongside the 8UC timeline. If you are tracing this timeline, there is never a point where we die in the calamity, and this not-dying version of our timeline leads onward to Endwalker and our trip to Elpis.

G'raha's actions are necessary to create the path, but the result is that there is never a time where the path is not there.

There was only one WoL who travelled to Elpis, and it was always only us.

Graha's jump to the past is 300 years into the future after Stormblood. When he went back in time, he went to a pre-merged world and it landed him 100 years in the past (from Stormblood) on the First.

Partly correct, but only from G'raha's personal experience.

From memory, the stated time that G'raha was awoken in the future was 200 years forward, and in travelling back in time (and across to the First) he arrived shortly after the Flood of Light occurred. In the First, that was about a hundred years before we arrived there, but then you have time variation on top of that.

From the events of post-Heavensward we know exactly when the Flood was happening in Norvrandt, because it was the time when the Warriors of Darkness came to the Source. Not a hundred years ago, but probably less than a year before the events of Shadowbringers occur by our perspective.

Because Graha's time travel does not run on the same rules as normal time travel. Normal time travel sends you back on a linear time scale. Graha's also mixed space into the mix. Instead of just going back in time on the Source, which would have been a case of "can't change the past," he crossed space as well as time onto the First, a place where he doesn't/shouldn't exist. This breaks outside of the normal rules of time travel, which allowed him to change how things occurred. We could get into the nitty gritty about how that works (let's not for our own sakes) considering the Sundering first needed to take place, but it's going to be quite a few paradoxes.

I don't believe the jump between shards had anything to do with how time travel works any why he successfully altered events.

My theory is that what made the difference is that he is trying to change a specific historical event. He knows exactly how it happened and when it happened and why. By altering circumstances so it is impossible for that known event to take place, he creates a situation that cannot lead to the future he travelled from, and so a second branch of time forms to house this altered situation.

By contrast, we can't do anything in Elpis because we have no idea of the specifics, so there's nothing we can do to create a similar contradiction.

First point, this doesn't contradict what I said, nor does it make what I said wrong. He was saying we could not stop the calamity, that it was always fated to happen, but we still changed things by going back in time.

We became part of events by going back in time, but that isn't the same thing as changing them. There still only needs to be one version of events at Elpis.

Actually, while g'raha time travel is normal time travel, by that point the first hasn't rejoined with the source since. At least not completely. That's why they need omega technology, since it is the one that allows him to jump from source dimension to the First dimension.

The First is definitely rejoined in that future. It's what caused all the destruction.

Omega tech is required to jump the rift after the tower travels back in time to a point before the Rejoining. Backwards, then sideways.

True that it won't change anything, but that's the point of ShB time travel. G'raha couldn't change his timeline history, but that results in branching timeline. Logically, us using the same technology as him should also result in branching timeline.

As I said earlier, I don't think that's the case. The determining factor isn't how we got to the past but what we do once we arrive, combined with how much pre-existing knowledge we have of the event.

We knew nothing about what would happen in Elpis, so there was nothing we could do (either deliberately or accidentally) that could not be incorporated into the timeline as it always has been.

[Iscah]

There wasn't even a clash Elidibus had detached by that point so Zodiark was inert. The sundering has nothing to do with Zodiark anymore Venats target was the ancients.

The whole point of my post that you replied to was presenting an alternate scenario that kept continuity with what we were told in Shadowbringers. So it's irrelevant to say it couldn't have happened because of things we learned in Endwalker, because those things would be written differently in that hypothetical scenario.

If there was a fight between Hydaelyn and Zodiark, as we were previously told, then Zodiark would not have been inert at the time.

The problem is that runs counter with the crossover story from Nier: Reincarnation.

Meaning there was a long drawn out fight between the two, before Hydaelyn became the victor.

Which doesn't at all match what we are show in Endwalker which is another retcon they made for endwalker. Zodiark was inert with out it's heart so inactive like we see on the moon

Yes, and it was a bad retcon. They basically threw out everything they'd previously told us about Zodiark and Hydaelyn and the Sundering to invent this new sequence of events that didn't match what they wrote before.

Normally they are very good at keeping their continuity going, so changing it all so much is really disappointing, and makes it even more bizarre that they changed it to make Venat look like such a villain.

It's like they rewrote it at the last minute and didn't think about anything they'd written before or take the time to connect it back up to past facts.