Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[Cilia]

It feels an awful lot like the Star Wars prequel trilogy - great ideas and characters, but mid execution. The reasons are different (Lucas was surrounded by yes men; sounds like there were too many cooks in Endwalker's kitchen) but the end result is flawed if still enjoyable. To me, at any rate.

... but just like with Lucas, Yoshi-P having good ideas doesn't mean he knows how to write, and it sounds a lot like he's behind Venat's awkward portrayal shifting between a well-intentioned extremist and an omnibenevolent tragic heroine. Then again, if the director / producer wants to tell a different story than the writer, whose vision is right? Maybe neither. Regardless, even in something like A Friendship of Record she isn't portrayed as flawless (she's keeping secrets from the Archivist and he knows it, but he trusts her judgment enough not to question. Should he? Another matter). And like any other person, harsh criticism is liable to just make them dig their heels in.

Don't expect an apology, but knowing what's behind the awkwardness would be nice. Well, 6.x is looking dece, so hopefully they learn(ed) a lesson.

[Lurina]

... but just like with Lucas, Yoshi-P having good ideas doesn't mean he knows how to write, and it sounds a lot like he's behind Venat's awkward portrayal shifting between a well-intentioned extremist and an omnibenevolent tragic heroine. Then again, if the director / producer wants to tell a different story than the writer, whose vision is right? Maybe neither. Regardless, even in something like A Friendship of Record she isn't portrayed as flawless (she's keeping secrets from the Archivist and he knows it, but he trusts her judgment enough not to question. Should he? Another matter). And like any other person, harsh criticism is liable to just make them dig their heels in.

I think a lot of this has its roots in Shadowbringers. Presumably because it was seen as a bit of a 'side-story' (and a lot of the team was busy with FFXVI), Ishikawa was given unprecedented narrative control, and used it to take the metaplot in a very different direction which ended up being a spectacular success - Shadowbringers was what took FFXIV from being considered just an MMO with a relatively good story to being considered one of the best Final Fantasy and JRPG stories period, especially in Japan, where Emet regularly goes toe-to-toe with the biggest characters in the entire franchise in character polls.

At the time, I remember a lot of interviews from Yoshi-P where he seemed to express a degree of confusion and disquiet about this. He complained a lot of times about how positively people viewed the Ascians and how suspiciously they regarded Hydaelyn when she's always believed in us and so on; in general he often expresses specific affection for her as a character. In more recent interviews he's come around a bit on the former point, but it's not difficult to imagine a situation where he felt the seeds sown by Ishikawa had to be followed up directly because of their incredible popularity, but wasn't - and still isn't - willing to let go of his original vision and his conception of Hydaelyn, even though that's just not the story she wrote.

I love Shadowbringers and Ishikawa's work, but it's not difficult to sympathize with him to a degree if this is what happened. It must feel very weird when someone takes something that's yours and runs hard in a direction you wouldn't, especially when people like the result more.

[Brightamethyst]

No, we literally know it as venat ask them to not do the third sacrifice before she sunder them. Okay fine, even assuming she's not happy with it, she's also fine dooming those souls inside eternal purgatory.

Doing something doesn't inherently mean you're okay with it. Yeah it was a terrible thing, but as far as she knew the alternative was worse.

We the players can look back and talk philosophy all day, but in the moment, with hell literally raining down from the skies, all Venat, the Convocation, etc could do was what they thought had the best chance of success. There was no good answer. Just varying shades of "slightly less terrible".

And yes, there's better option. Maybe, you know, telling the Ancients that the real big bad is still there?? The Ancients literally doesn't even know the source of final days. They thought whatever calamity they'd endured already pass and now it was the time to get their beloved souls from zodiark. Only one person know the truth behind final days and she didn't share it, not even to her faction.

So I ask, what's her excuse for not telling the Ancients of Meteion's existence?

To what end? What would that realistically have changed?

I mean, I'm definitely not big fan of Venat, but I don't think she's an evil, genocidal manic either.

[Lyth]

It's making me dislike being in these lore forums. I can see why everybody's favorite lore guy (I mean literally, not sarcastically) bowed out of things, it has gotten so toxic here between people forcing their opinions out as fact, purposefully twisting the words of other posters... I'm starting to feel like we should make it a rule after the next expansion comes out to never speak of the Ancients again, for all our sakes.

I don't think that Amaurot is really the driving force for all this. We could just as easily see this same sort of behavior around Garlemald or the Void. You could have some interesting conversations around the Amaurotines if it was possible that things could stay civil. But all it takes is one person with a longstanding grudge against the community to start firefights and drive people out. It's really just a moderation issue that needs to be highlighted at the next Q+A.

I really wish that people reflected on Moose's most recent post. You don't have to like the game or its story, but don't go out of your way to ruin the vibe of people who do.

????

You know, in order for a statement to be defamatory, it actually needs to be false. In addition, an external third party should be capable of identifying who the person under discussion is. The sensible thing to do would have been to say nothing and let my statements be interpreted in the most general sense by all present. The fact that you chose to out yourself in such a spectacular fashion really had nothing to do my post. It is what it is.

[PogueX]

I'm a total FF simp and i would even admit that Endwalker wasn't the best story around. The plot with Zenos was just something thrown in there, guy just wanted to spar while were trying to save the world. Why? because "our battle will live in the imprint of the cosmos" or something like that.

Also, the references to FF4 are getting old, i know it's a good FF game but jeeezz Yoshi P does every update have to make FF4 references....and now were fighting Golbez !

Where the story took a turn was after the Zodiark, rather quickly squash him...they should have him break from his prison and wreak havoc on Eorzea. Whereas the WOL has to eventually build up to put down that havoc. Instead they got rid of Zodiark and quickly went to the Meteion story arc

[Theodric]

You know, in order for a statement to be defamatory, it actually needs to be false. In addition, an external third party should be capable of identifying who the person under discussion is. The sensible thing to do would have been to say nothing and let my statements be interpreted in the most general sense by all present. The fact that you chose to out yourself in such a spectacular fashion really had nothing to do my post. It is what it is.

Then by all means do feel free to elaborate. What exactly is it you that you are insinuating again?

If we're going by what is sensible, then I believe this is something to clear up once and for all.

[AwesomeJr44]

You know, in order for a statement to be defamatory, it actually needs to be false. In addition, an external third party should be capable of identifying who the person under discussion is. The sensible thing to do would have been to say nothing and let my statements be interpreted in the most general sense by all present. The fact that you chose to out yourself in such a spectacular fashion really had nothing to do my post. It is what it is.

Weren't you the weirdo who decided that because you couldn't win arguments, you'd accuse people who disagree of being alts of each other, all for the massive crime of... playing the same race in the game? And I do seem to remember that one of the names of the people you accused of being alts was a midlander named Theod... Theo... maybe it was Theodric?

[Kozh]

It's making me dislike being in these lore forums. I can see why everybody's favorite lore guy (I mean literally, not sarcastically) bowed out of things, it has gotten so toxic here between people forcing their opinions out as fact, purposefully twisting the words of other posters... I'm starting to feel like we should make it a rule after the next expansion comes out to never speak of the Ancients again, for all our sakes.

Disagree with "never speak of the Ancients again", but man I'm glad you understand our pain regarding people forcing their opinions as fact. Can you imagine? There are people insisting Zodiark is blood god who will keep demanding babies sacrifices, when zero evidence points to that direction.
And it's one thing to talk sh*t about fictional characters, but those same person often insult the person they're arguing against. Smh.

[Hurlstone]

If a sci-fi story shamelessly retcons...

By that logic Star Trek ceased to be worthy of the title of good by its second episode. Doctor Who would not have left the early sixties without tarnishing itself! I agree that retcons can be bad and done for the most stupid of reasons. I admit even in a fictional world where you create the rules, the world building means nothing if you just break it without reason or consequence.. but they can also be done to fix past errors and add more depth to its lore, especially if multiple writers are involved or a story is not planed out from the start. A well-done retcon can be beautiful. My favourite show is Doctor Who, and my favourite episode is a story which 'retcons' nearly seven years of the characters development (Funnily enough it retcons the main character committing double genocide!) and I love it because I felt that was far more true to the character then what the writers for the previous seven years. And I am sorry, we can disagree on everything FFXIV related but I will NEVER say that Doctor Who is an objectively bad show. I will die on that hill sir, madam and/or person!

Most things in most fields typically aren't. If everything was good, nothing would be.

Fair but by your rules I do not think I could judge anything as good! Not Endwalker, not Shadowbringers ect. In a way I can dig it because I do not think any medium or fiction can be classfied as perfect, but I do not think that was your point haha.

Step 1) Don't let your emotional connection to something or your preferences dictate your judgement

I do not even think that is possible. We are all influenced by our views, politics and position. Its something I attribute more to writing fiction, but still think it holds merit when considering reviews and opinion pieces. Emotional reactions are also a key point of fiction, and the very fact that such stories can effect people in different ways IS one of the reasons why I think even trying to judge them objectivly is ineffective. This is one area where the 'veiled personal attacks' seem to come into play. This idea that those who do not agree with the anti-Veant opinion are lacking 'critical thinking' for coming to a different conclusion.

Take what you said about the Ancients above. I have seen people come to the same conclusion, but I have also seen others say different. We all came to such conclusions in different ways, but why should your way of viewing it be superior? Why should I trust that you came to said conclusion without any biases? I can only judge the material for myself, and despite what you say, there is no universally agreed method to do that. If there was then reading reviews and opinion pecies would be very dull.

In the end, we are all arm chair analystes typeing out our opinion for a video game on a forum. None of us should be consider superior to anyone else in opinions or objectivity.

[Lyth]

Go back and have a second look at that thread, if it helps. I spoke in the most general of terms about a problem that I had observed on these forums for several months. Had it been left at that, that's how pretty much everyone else present would have interpreted it. It wasn't a public indictment, although the responses certainly were. Why, I could have just been talking about the famous Dravus Eligar, for all you know. But he was from a kinder, less aggressive time, I suspect.

I wasn't around this subforum during Stormblood or Shadowbringers, so I don't know what went on during that period, nor does it have any bearing on the people currently posting in here, shoulder chips aside. I'm personally able to enjoy villainous characters for what they are, and I probably would be more supportive of both Amaurot and Garlemald if their fans didn't insist on being so singularly aggressive towards others. Nobody likes a bully.

And that's my biggest objection here. If you're having a debate, do it because its fun and because the discussion makes you look more deeply into the lore. I learnt a lot from digging up quotes. If it becomes hostile and confrontational, then the situation escalates unnecessarily. It stops being about the story, and it starts being about you. I'm not interested in that personally, but nor am I willing to be intimidated or driven out like the old community was. Again, that's why I think this needs to be brought up at the next Q+A if we're going to see any real headway in these discussions.