Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[Hurlstone]

Logic and common sense. If your story does not make logical sense within its own universe, it is not a good story. If you set something up in a certain way, and then retcon it, that is bad storytelling. If you show one thing and tell a completely different thing, that is bad storytelling. If you make a race of people or a particular person, only to then tear them down and paint them as awful since the dawn of time when they clearly weren't until a grand total of 5 minutes ago (if at all), that's bad storytelling. (I mentioned RWBY earlier and cartoon villain Ironwood fits this last one well)

If a story does any of these, you have encountered bad storytelling. These are not the only storytelling rules, but they are some of the basics, and Endwalker breaks all five of these. Endwalker is not a good story. It is objectively pretty bad. You can like it, and you have the right to do so, but if you wanna say it is a GOOD story, you are lying.

But personally speaking, much of what you say is still subjective. I actually agree with some of the issues you highlight (Such as the contradictory way EW explains and shows time travel) but I do not think its justification enough to label something one way or the other. Like, if retconning a story makes it automatically bad then so many sci-fi and fantasy stories, or series that run for multiple season, would automatically be disqualified. Showing and telling different themes can be a sign of bad writing sure, but it can also be a way for a story to display conflicting opinions and viewpoints. If feels as though if such things are used in the scales of judgement , then very few things would ever be considered good.

To me, art is a format that is far too expressive and layered to be simply categorised in black or white terms. To apply a strict set of rules just weighs down the creative element, even when you try and look at it from an objective point. No, especially when you try and look at it from such a viewpoint. We are all bias in how we consume and view content like this. None of us can give a completely ‘logical’ judgement on most of these things. Not you, not me, and not JimTheFish over there.

In the end I feel we will just have to disagree on this. My view is let people enjoy what fiction they like or do not like. Its that simple. The thing I take most from this though is that I should really catch up with RWBY, as last I remember Ironwood was more of a supporting character (I think I got up to Vol 6?) Curious now to see what they have done with him.

[Iscah]

I believe you when you say that the writers aren't on the same page as their writing, they wrote this evil character and portrayed her a tragic hero and expected people to buy it. Thus she is indeed a villain in all but name, and a lot of people bought the lie, hook line and sinker.

But they didn't intend to "sell you a lie". They intended for her to be a tragic heroine. They did a bad job on the details but it's still what they intended, and other parts of the story reflect that portrayal.

So, going forward in the story, you have the choice to accept their intent (and not scrutinise the details) or focus on an interpretation that might be "more accurate" but at the cost of being at odds with what the writers think they wrote and thus will refer back to.

[Listrella]

How concieted can you get to assume your opinion matters when evaluating the objective quality of a product?

I never said that, what i'm saying is that is no objective quality when it comes to art, it's all sujective. I'm done arguing though, it's clear we're never going to see eye to eye on this. in my opinion this thread should be locked or laeast moved to general discussion, this isn't discussing the game's lore, this is just whining.

[Lurina]

But they didn't intend to "sell you a lie". They intended for her to be a tragic heroine. They did a bad job on the details but it's still what they intended, and other parts of the story reflect that portrayal.

So, going forward in the story, you have the choice to accept their intent (and not scrutinise the details) or focus on an interpretation that might be "more accurate" but at the cost of being at odds with what the writers think they wrote and thus will refer back to.

I think what makes all strange is that the usual response from writers who put out something which doesn't quite come out the way they intended (and since pretty much every public discussion about Venat on any platform gets some degree of derailment along these lines, I think it's reasonable to say it didn't, at least not completely) is to self-correct, so that at least that dissonance doesn't linger going forward. And a lot of post-EW content, like the Omega quest and Pandaemonium, does feel like self-correction to some degree.

But then you have things like this short story that don't, and just double down on the vibe of the original in one way or the other. So it all feels very discordant...

If I might get a little conspiratorial, it feels like a lot of the writers are still kind of dying on hills for their take on the story without really considering how they will impact the broader picture. So in one corner you have Ishikawa writing the Nier Reincarnation story that portrays the Sundering in basically the most horrific light possible, while in the other you have stuff like this - probably written by Yoshi-P or someone on the same page as him - that's basically treating Venat like a saint. Ishikawa obviously doesn't think of Venat in such simple terms as "tragic heroine" and so feels comfortable injecting even more ambiguity, but the core narrative voice is insistent in spite of her contributions.

It feels like we're listening to two different songs being played at the same time. In isolation, both songs are fine, and if we parse them that way it's possible to enjoy them. But if we try to treat them as one melody, the result is bizarre.

[Listrella]

I think what makes all strange is that the usual response from writers who put out something which doesn't quite come out the way they intended (and since pretty much every public discussion about Venat on any platform gets some degree of derailment along these lines, I think it's reasonable to say it didn't) is to self-correct, so that at least that dissonance doesn't linger going forward. And a lot of post-EW content, like the Omega quest and Pandaemonium, does feel like self-correction to some degree.

But then you have things like this short story that don't, and just double down on the vibe of the original in one way or the other. So it all feels very discordant...

If I might get a little conspiratorial, it feels like a lot of the writers are kind of dying on hills for their take on the story without really considering how they will impact the broader picture. So in one corner you have Ishikawa writing the Nier Reincarnation story that portrays the Sundering in basically the most horrific light possible, while in the other you have stuff like this - probably written by Yoshi-P or someone on the same page as him - that's basically treating Venat like a saint. Ishikawa obviously doesn't think of Venat as a "tragic heroine" and so feels comfortable injecting all this ambiguity, but the core narrative voice is insistent in spite of her contributions.

It feels like we're listening to two different songs being played at the same time. In isolation, both songs are fine, and if we parse them that way it's possible to enjoy them. But if we try to treat them as one melody, the result is bizarre.

what the hell has nier reincarnation got to do with this? that's a completely different series, just because nier had a crossover here doesn't mean reincarnation relates to ff14 in any way.

[Lurina]

what the hell has nier reincarnation got to do with this? that's a completely different series, just because nier had a crossover here doesn't mean reincarnation relates to ff14 in any way.

Nier Reincarnation had a collab story about the Sundering in it written by Ishikawa. You can watch it here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVZh6oZziwQ

[Iscah]

If I might get a little conspiratorial, it feels like a lot of the writers are kind of dying on hills for their take on the story without really considering how they will impact the broader picture.

That's my feeling on it too, and why I just don't want to put too much effort into scrutinising character intentions and actions in that part of the story too much, because they do seem at odds with the rest of their own story. It definitely feels like different people asserted their preferred version of events at different parts of the story, perhaps because they were working in isolation on separate parts or perhaps there were arguments going on behind the scenes about it – and whatever the cause, the result is a story that doesn't actually have a consistent portrayal of those controversial elements.

It also seems likely that some parts got rewritten over the course of production without really scrutinising how that affected other parts of the story.

[SannaR]

There was that big meeting about the story that the Devs told us about. We don't know what went on in the meeting, but the fact they mentioned one happened and how late reworks were made to the story one has to wonder if the disconnect some have with the writing are due to running out of time let alone not quite everyone on the same page. Or at least not a big enough final look over to make sure there was enough of a similar tone or depiction of things.

[TheSuperior]

This is one of those times where everyone comes to argue their opinion to people who genuinely don't care about what the other side thinks. OP came decided to drop their disinterest, why are people acting like they're going to change their already made up mind?

[AwesomeJr44]

Like, if retconning a story makes it automatically bad then so many sci-fi and fantasy stories, or series that run for multiple season, would automatically be disqualified.

If a sci-fi story shamelessly retcons its lore because the writers wrote themselves into a corner or because of 'rule of cool', that's an example of bad storytelling. When you do it once out of genuine necessity it might be outweighed by the rest of the work, but Endwalker does it too drastically and too often for it to be excusable.

Showing and telling different themes can be a sign of bad writing sure, but it can also be a way for a story to display conflicting opinions and viewpoints.

Showing multiple viewpoints is not what I'm referring to. For an example of what I'm referring to, let's say a story has a race of ultra-intelligent lifeforms who if based on what the story shows, should have the ability to survive and overcome a coming threat. The story itself then turns around and has multiple characters demand that you ignore everything you've seen and just accept that they are in fact NOT capable of accomplishing this. In addition, the story makes no effort to show any proof of this. You are expected to believe that what the story tells you is true even when what the story shows is contradictory.

If feels as though if such things are used in the scales of judgement , then very few things would ever be considered good.

Most things in most fields typically aren't. If everything was good, nothing would be.

To me, art is a format that is far too expressive and layered to be simply categorized in black or white terms. To apply a strict set of rules just weighs down the creative element, even when you try and look at it from an objective point.

The rule is "don't be completely illogical". This is not a hard rule to follow nor does it 'weigh down the creative element'. In fact, it challenges you to be more creative. To write a good story, particularly one that takes place in an established universe, you must write the story you wish to tell while respecting the rules you have established. This presents a challenge for you to put your creative abilities against, a test to see if you are truly creative enough to write a story that is coherent but also interesting
.

None of us can give a completely ‘logical’ judgement on most of these things. Not you, not me, and not JimTheFish over there.

You can, and I'll teach you how.

Step 1) Don't let your emotional connection to something or your preferences dictate your judgement
Step 2) Look at a story's plot from a fact-based perspective
Step 3a) Ask yourself if the story makes logical sense given the story's in-universe rules
Step 3b) Check to see if the story has contradicted any information given previously in the series (if applicable)
Step 4) You now have your answer

The thing I take most from this though is that I should really catch up with RWBY, as last I remember Ironwood was more of a supporting character (I think I got up to Vol 6?) Curious now to see what they have done with him.

The writers wanted to make him a villain but the fans liked him too much in vol.7, so they made him go full hitler cartoon villain to make him unlikeable. He went from willing to do what was necessary even if it wasn't morally great to threatening to bomb his own city to get what he wants. He's essentially a reverse Venat. They made the character too likeable and tried to make him a cartoon supervillain to force people to hate him.

But they didn't intend to "sell you a lie". They intended for her to be a tragic heroine.

As I said before, it doesn't matter what they intended, it matters what they did.

I never said that, what i'm saying is that is no objective quality when it comes to art, it's all sujective. I'm done arguing though, it's clear we're never going to see eye to eye on this.

Yes, and how can you be so 'conceited' (as you so put it originally) to believe that a subjective opinion is more important than hard evidence and facts?

in my opinion this thread should be locked or laeast moved to general discussion, this isn't discussing the game's lore, this is just whining.

"I'm wrong so I want the thread locked or moved to a less relevant section so I look less bad"

This is one of those times where everyone comes to argue their opinion to people who genuinely don't care about what the other side thinks. OP came decided to drop their disinterest, why are people acting like they're going to change their already made up mind?

It's hard to care what the other side thinks when they don't care about what you think either.