Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[RyuDragnier]

Oh I think it will be an ongoing thing, perhaps when 7.0 comes out it will lessen but a bit like how some people regard Stormblood as dull Endwalker will always have divisive elements for others. We are the small minority of players who bother to actually seek out places to speak our views. I find that such topics rarly fade fast in such circles. Perhaps in time the debate on this will not be so… sharply pointed by then, but we shall see.

It's making me dislike being in these lore forums. I can see why everybody's favorite lore guy (I mean literally, not sarcastically) bowed out of things, it has gotten so toxic here between people forcing their opinions out as fact, purposefully twisting the words of other posters... I'm starting to feel like we should make it a rule after the next expansion comes out to never speak of the Ancients again, for all our sakes.

[Cilia]

It's making me dislike being in these lore forums. I can see why everybody's favorite lore guy (I mean literally, not sarcastically) bowed out of things, it has gotten so toxic here between people forcing their opinions out as fact, purposefully twisting the words of other posters... I'm starting to feel like we should make it a rule after the next expansion comes out to never speak of the Ancients again, for all our sakes.

I know I'm not anybody's favorite, but I dropped off for a long while specifically because the toxicity was making it unenjoyable. It looked to have quieted down, but then new patch + short story that continued to sing Venat's praises instead of vilifying her like critics want released, so you know what that means.

[RyuDragnier]

That's why I suggest the rule to never speak of the Ancients again after Endwalker is done. Because if we're lucky, they won't come up ever again, and we'll never have to deal with these conversations again. Because I'm sorry, all the arguments have been done to the point where the arguments aren't even good discussion anymore, they're just flame wars. Such things should not be tolerated, especially in a subforum about civil discussion about in-game lore. Yes, I get the irony of that, but there's a reason why certain subjects are taboo in forums, because they're just going to start flame wars.

[SannaR]

That's why I suggest the rule to never speak of the Ancients again after Endwalker is done. Because if we're lucky, they won't come up ever again, and we'll never have to deal with these conversations again. Because I'm sorry, all the arguments have been done to the point where the arguments aren't even good discussion anymore, they're just flame wars. Such things should not be tolerated, especially in a subforum about civil discussion about in-game lore. Yes, I get the irony of that, but there's a reason why certain subjects are taboo in forums, because they're just going to start flame wars.

It's why in one thread I made the comment of necromancy of a horse on repeat after we've turned it into glue. While also smacking our collective heads against a brick wall. With or without screaming. I'm a bit sad that my feeling that 6.2 wouldn't give us anything really new to chew on ended up being correct. I have doubts that until 6.5 at the earliest will allow us a break from talking about the Ancients. Since I highly doubt some will have satisfied their need or hunger to "discuss" whatever conclusion of Pandeamonium's end means. @Cilia I did wonder why you seemed to have dropped off. Meanwhile I'll just have to slog through an anonymous moose's videos.

[PawPaw]

I'm pretty thrilled with the short story, to be quite frank. It showed that for all of her talk of "bringing people into the fold" and "seeing who can be trusted" that she did absolutely nothing with the knowledge we gave her except for using it to manipulate others to the ends she desired. Also makes the friend the Watcher is based off of read like a starry-eyed idiot incapable of reliable narration because of his obsession with his Paragon of Virtue. It was fantastic.

[AwesomeJr44]

people forcing their opinions out as fact

People need to stop acting like the omission of a statement of "this is just my opinion" means it was intended as a fact. If I say that I didn't like ____ or that I liked ____, that's obviously an opinion and I don't need to state it as such as anyone with basic critical thinking could realize that. I'm not sure why so many people on the forums can't seem to grasp that but it's been an annoying issue as of late.

I'm starting to feel like we should make it a rule after the next expansion comes out to never speak of the Ancients again, for all our sakes.

People will stop talking about the ancients so much when 1) the writers stop treating the ancients like crappy evil people when they clearly weren't and 2) when both the writers and pro-Hydaelyn people stop telling anyone who likes the ancients and/or think their treatment by the writers was unfair to go screw themselves.

but then new patch + short story that continued to sing Venat's praises instead of vilifying her like critics want released, so you know what that means.

A short story that continues the trend of praising a person guilty of genocide is disliked by some people. Shocker.

Because I'm sorry, all the arguments have been done to the point where the arguments aren't even good discussion anymore, they're just flame wars. Such things should not be tolerated, especially in a subforum about civil discussion about in-game lore. Yes, I get the irony of that, but there's a reason why certain subjects are taboo in forums, because they're just going to start flame wars.

In SHB anyone who agreed with/supported Emet on the forums was told that supporting him was condoning genocide and thus they were nazis/bad people for doing it. Now Venat is guilty of the same thing and yet because the story frames her as the good guy, the same people who hated Emet for genocide seem to love Venat and excuse her actions at every turn. I don't seem to remember rules being put in place saying that you couldn't flame pro-Emet people. Y'all are just upset that some people aren't putting up with this crap.

[Striker44]

An appropriate consequence for this game's equivalent of the Burning of Teldrassil, I suppose.

Nothing like that. Unless you mean that people like you and aveyond are the ones claiming the Burning of Teldrassil was a good thing, and are utterly shocked that most people feel otherwise. That would make more sense given the immense popularity of EW's story practically everywhere outside of your little echo chamber of negativity here on the forums.

Personally, I thoroughly enjoyed EW. And I love that I can go to YT, or even Reddit of all places, and find hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people talking about how much they likewise enjoyed it and how meaningful it was for some of them.

[AwesomeJr44]

That would make more sense given the immense popularity of EW's story practically everywhere outside of your little echo chamber of negativity here on the forums.

You say this as if other social media sites aren't toxic positivity echo chambers that outcast anyone who disagrees with the narrative that everything's fine. But of course, people like me, Aveyond, or Theodric must respect your majoritah! RESPECT THE MAJORITAH OF STRIKER44!!!!!!!!!

[Hurlstone]

People need to stop acting like the omission of a statement of "this is just my opinion" means it was intended as a fact. If I say that I didn't like ____ or that I liked ____, that's obviously an opinion and I don't need to state it as such as anyone with basic critical thinking could realize that. I'm not sure why so many people on the forums can't seem to grasp that but it's been an annoying issue as of late.

To be fair the OP of this thread literaly did say "facts are facts and that's that." in regards to their opinion that Endwalker sucks. Its a small detail, but I can see why it can irk people.

In SHB anyone who agreed with/supported Emet on the forums was told that supporting him was condoning genocide and thus they were nazis/bad people for doing it. Now Venat is guilty of the same thing and yet because the story frames her as the good guy, the same people who hated Emet for genocide seem to love Venat and excuse her actions at every turn. I don't seem to remember rules being put in place saying that you couldn't flame pro-Emet people. Y'all are just upset that some people aren't putting up with this crap.

You say this as if other social media sites aren't toxic positivity echo chambers that outcast anyone who disagrees with the narrative that everything's fine. But of course, people like me, Aveyond, or Theodric must respect your majoritah! RESPECT THE MAJORITAH OF STRIKER44!!!!!!!!!

Do people saying that about Emet fans (Which is wrong because he is one of the best and most fasinating character in FF history, imo) excuse doing the same to people who enjoyed EW/like Venat though? And can you really say there is not a toxic element to some of the anti-Venat debate here? I am not saying the other side of the debate is perfect or lacking so-called 'toxic' elements, but to cite that as the reason to justify veiled personal stabs and judgmental accusations seems like a poor excuse.

[AwesomeJr44]

To be fair the OP of this thread literaly did say "facts are facts and that's that." in regards to their opinion that Endwalker sucks.

Endwalker was a deeply flawed story objectively. This is a true fact whether anyone likes it or not. You can LIKE the story, but that doesn't mean it is a GOOD story. That was the point of the OP. There's too many objective flaws in Endwalker for it to be a 'great' story as so many claim. I love Shadowbringers and I can admit that the trolley part of it was a very bad portion of the story, even though I personally didn't have an issue with it. And even besides the case of the OP, people not being able to tell facts from opinions has been a real problem as of late. Certain people have been getting their undergarments twisted because not everyone feels the need to include a "iN mY oPiNiOn" before everything they say as it should be obvious.

Does people saying that about Emet fans excuse doing the same to people who enjoyed EW/like Venat though? And can you really say there is not a toxic element to some of the anti-Venat debate here? I am not saying the other side of the debate is perfect or lacking so-called 'toxic' elements, but to cite that as the reason to justify veiled personal stabs and judgmental accusations seems like a poor excuse.

None of the people crying about it now had a problem with it then, they only do now because it's in a way they don't like. Thus you'll have to forgive me if I don't give a crap if the pro-Venat people get 'flamed' or feel unwelcome. They did that to us for an entire expansion and now that it's happening to them (even though I'd argue to a MUCH lesser extent, if at all considering they still have literally every other major social media site as a positive echo chamber), all of a sudden it's super bad to flame people. I personally would prefer that we could all be more civil, but 1) my interactions with people on the forums haven't filled me with confidence that the other side even wants to, and 2) they made their bed and they must lie in it for good or for ill. This is the standard that they themselves supported. They must live by it.

These people supported actual flaming and toxicity for years and now that they get the slightest pushback on their opinions they cry foul. Spare me.