Endwalker Story sucked and it's time to admit it

[Theodric]

I'll just gently leave a previous post of mine touching on the subject in question. This is taken from an older thread that has since been locked so I can't quote it directly but here it is:

- - -

At the end of the day, it's just a video game. One many of us are varying degrees of passionate about, certainly, though I personally don't care for rivalries to form over something that is entirely fictional. As such, my stance has ever been to agree to disagree where common ground cannot be found. I don't care for endless arguments over morality and I'd like to think I've made it perfectly clear that if anyone has a problem with me, then they're very welcome to come and talk it out in a civil manner.

I like working out and discussing the 'how' and 'why' things happen in the way that they do in any given story or historical event, though my personal preferences drift towards characters and factions that have lofty stakes over those that have everything work out to their benefit most of the time.

One thing I noticed, however, was that some pretty spiteful and nasty accusations were aimed at anyone who ever dared to speak up in favour of the antagonists. This included death threats, homophobic comments and other unpleasant elements. Given that the offending posts were deleted, however, then such will have to be taken with a pinch of salt - though I'd like to think those who are being genuine and who have been around for a while will be aware of what I'm speaking of. Especially since some of the offending comments leaked into Reddit, Twitter and certain Discord servers.

The most fascinating thing I observed was that certain posters would repeatedly launch thinly veiled attacks and sometimes direct personal attacks at fans of the antagonists, implying all manner of horrible things about their person and real world morality. When finally those being assaulted had enough, even a minor quip in response would be treated as some deeply horrific crime and personal attack.I will say that things have improved somewhat since then. Right around the same time that the game itself revealed that, yes, actually there was more to the Ascians and Garleans all along.

Ultimately any given individual is going to have their personal preferences and interests. I've never suggested that anyone has to like specific characters or factions. I only ask that the same courtesy is extended to others in turn.

In closing, I'd also note that the game attracts players from many different countries, cultures, backgrounds and belief systems. We all have different life experiences, so that is going to influence what we like and we don't like.

- - -

Source:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5778011

I'm not one to beat around the bush so I won't do that. The suggestion that there should be no future discussions about the Ancients just strikes me as the latest attempt to try and stifle what a lot of us simply enjoy about the setting. I can completely understand how some people might be tired of them or at least weary of the circular discussions surrounding them.

There's an easy solution, though. Or rather multiple easy solutions. One could just not pop into a thread that it obviously not going to be to one's personal tastes or interests. I have any desire to engage in ultimate level raiding, so I don't go into threads related to ultimate level raiding to argue about the game mode.

The ignore function also exists. I've made use of it myself in certain cases, particularly for those who go too far or make it clear that they're simply looking to pick fights over what is ultimately just a bunch of pixels on a screen.

My own default stance is simple to agree to disagree on points of contention and I shall continue to do just that. I'd humbly suggest that others seek to do the same or at least try to do as much.

[Listrella]

Endwalker was a deeply flawed story objectively. This is a true fact whether anyone likes it or not. You can LIKE the story, but that doesn't mean it is a GOOD story. That was the point of the OP. There's too many objective flaws in Endwalker for it to be a 'great' story as so many claim. I love Shadowbringers and I can admit that the trolley part of it was a very bad portion of the story, even though I personally didn't have an issue with it. And even besides the case of the OP, people not being able to tell facts from opinions has been a real problem as of late. Certain people have been getting their undergarments twisted because not everyone feels the need to include a "iN mY oPiNiOn" before everything they say as it should be obvious.



None of the people crying about it now had a problem with it then, they only do now because it's in a way they don't like. Thus you'll have to forgive me if I don't give a crap if the pro-Venat people get 'flamed' or feel unwelcome. They did that to us for an entire expansion and now that it's happening to them (even though I'd argue to a MUCH lesser extent, if at all considering they still have literally every other major social media site as a positive echo chamber), all of a sudden it's super bad to flame people. I personally would prefer that we could all be more civil, but 1) my interactions with people on the forums haven't filled me with confidence that the other side even wants to, and 2) they made their bed and they must lie in it for good or for ill. This is the standard that they themselves supported. They must live by it.

These people supported actual flaming and toxicity for years and now that they get the slightest pushback on their opinions they cry foul. Spare me.

All art is subjective, the story is not objectively bad, nor is it objectively good, it is all up to personal opinion. You might not have liked the story but that doesn't make it a fact that it is objectively bad. I personally think Venat was justified in her actions, it was what had to be done to save the world from the final days. You may disagree on that, which is fine, we all have our own opinions, don't try to tell other people that your opinion is the only right one though.

[Rulakir]

I'm not surprised by the call for abstinence because y'all can't seem to help yourselves, to the extent that I recognize several of you from the "lackluster" thread in general discussion.

As for the topic at hand, even without the Ancients EW was a middling expansion. I found quite a lot of it boring and the themes were juvenile at best and offensive at worst. Elpis carried it hard, it was both the best and worst part of 6.0.

Immortal Scions are also dull. Not to mention the messaging when the protagonists always win and never suffer any setbacks let alone losses in a world ending scenario to overcome despair was laughable.

I unsubbed (to the joy of the complainers here, I'm sure), possibly permanently because the writing outside of Pandemonium (and, believe me, I'm waiting for them to ruin that too) is just so bad I can't take it seriously anymore. It's a shame because I dearly loved ShB and didn't want to admit that it was a fluke. Oh well.

Regarding the toxicity, that has existed here since before I joined and it doesn't take long to realize the people complaining about it are the ones cultivating it. I learned that the hard way as did several others. There's a reason lore discussion moved to another forum. I only have a day or two left of forum access. I'm mostly just giddy about the short story confirming what we'd been saying all along, what a nice parting gift.

[AwesomeJr44]

All art is subjective, the story is not objectively bad, nor is it objectively good, it is all up to personal opinion. You might not have liked the story but that doesn't make it a fact that it is objectively bad. I personally think Venat was justified in her actions, it was what had to be done to save the world from the final days. You may disagree on that, which is fine, we all have our own opinions, don't try to tell other people that your opinion is the only right one though.

The quality of a story is objective. You can like a bad story if you so choose, but that choice does not make that story of a higher quality. If I write a book series of four books, and in my last one I trash everything that came before and repeatedly try to force my readers to agree with me and like a certain character that I do, that's bad storytelling objectively. You can like my story, but it is not good. The same is true in reverse. For example, Lord of the Rings (both the books and the movies) is an objectively amazing series that is very high quality. There are still plenty of people who don't like it for one reason or another. Them not liking Lord of the Rings does not make it a bad series. You can have your opinion on whether you LIKED or DISLIKED Endwalker or LotR, but your opinion does not define its quality as that is objective.

[Listrella]

The quality of a story is objective. You can like a bad story if you so choose, but that choice does not make that story of a higher quality. If I write a book series of four books, and in my last one I trash everything that came before and repeatedly try to force my readers to agree with me and like a certain character that I do, that's bad storytelling objectively. You can like my story, but it is not good. The same is true in reverse. For example, Lord of the Rings (both the books and the movies) is an objectively amazing series that is very high quality. There are still plenty of people who don't like it for one reason or another. Them not liking Lord of the Rings does not make it a bad series. You can have your opinion on whether you LIKED or DISLIKED Endwalker or LotR, but your opinion does not define its quality as that is objective.

I very much disagree with you, quality is subjective in art, it's fine to hate endwalker, what is not fine is to hate endwalker and say everyone who likes it sucks. what makes your opinion the the defining measure about whether something is of high quality or not, how concieted can you get? And I fail to see who endwalker trashed everything that came before it.

[Lauront]

People will stop talking about the ancients so much when 1) the writers stop treating the ancients like crappy evil people when they clearly weren't and 2) when both the writers and pro-Hydaelyn people stop telling anyone who likes the ancients and/or think their treatment by the writers was unfair to go screw themselves.

On top of this, they are central to many major aspects of the story, including on-going ones pertaining to the normal and 24 man raids, not to mention being the progenitor race of the sundered and linked to at least some of their customs, as well as responsible for populating the world with the myriads of beings that dwell upon it. Based on polling, they rank amongst the most popular characters in the game. The sundering is a central event to the world's history and it marks the end of their great civilisation. So it's not really likely that they will stop being discussed altogether, anymore than other major plot elements. Those who are not interested in discussing them can stop doing that right now. There's nothing forcing them to discuss them or anything relating to them.

Regarding discussion that becomes too 'toxic' or involves personal jabs, that should be taken up with the person in question, and/or followed by using the ignore function, or reporting if it is felt it merits it. It's best avoided, but people have differing definitions of what constitutes a "jab", tolerance thresholds etc., which is why it's down to individual judgement at the end of the day. Bemoaning continued discussion through complaints about 'echo chambers' or through similar acts of armchair psychologising, when the more obvious answer in this case is that people are still going through the expansion and/or may have put off discussing their views on it and/or people posting as the plot evolves, is not really going to get anywhere. I generally don't post much in this subsection of the forum, but I'm afraid I see little reason to stop discussing the ancients just because some people don't like them.

[Hurlstone]

There is merit in avoiding threads and topics you do not want to talk in, its why I now just avoid the “lackluster” thread despite trying to dabble in it in the past, but I feel having to avoid any thread where such topics can pop up is an unnecessary chore that goes against how forums should be used. Plus to be fair how many of you anti-Venat people would stay out of a thread tittled '"Endwalker Story is Amazing and its time to admit it."?

In regards to that aspect of this debate, banning any discussion of lore things like The Ancients is uncalled for. If its part of the lore, then it should be open to debate and talk. Yes, it seems clear that any talk of Venet ect will bring toxic snowball fights, but it is just something that needs to unfortunately be expected given the alternative. It would be nice if the moderation was better for when things get personal however.

[AwesomeJr44]

what is not fine is to hate endwalker and say everyone who likes it sucks.

You don't suck if you like low quality art. I like RWBY (although some of the modern stuff like cartoon villain Ironwood is a little bleh). RWBY is a VERY low quality piece of art. But at the same time, I can admit that it's not an amazing masterpiece just because I like it.

what makes your opinion the the defining measure about whether something is of high quality or not,

Here's the problem. You assume this is my opinion. I am applying general logic and rules for good storytelling to Endwalker. This is not opinion-based. If Endwalker does not make logical sense, that is not my opinion, it just does not make logical sense.

how concieted can you get?

How concieted can you get to assume your opinion matters when evaluating the objective quality of a product?

And I fail to see who endwalker trashed everything that came before it.

You get a retcon! And you get a retcon! And you get a retcon!

Plus to be fair how many of you anti-Venat people would stay out of a thread tittled '"Endwalker Story is Amazing and its time to admit it."?

We can choose to be in whatever threads we want to, and we can choose to NOT be in threads we don't like.

[Kozh]

We don't know that. We know what happened, but we don't know the exact scenario that lead to it or how everyone felt about it. I doubt anyone actually wanted to abandon those souls to Zodiark for eternity, but what was the better option?

No, we literally know it as venat ask them to not do the third sacrifice before she sunder them. Okay fine, even assuming she's not happy with it, she's also fine dooming those souls inside eternal purgatory.

And yes, there's better option. Maybe, you know, telling the Ancients that the real big bad is still there?? The Ancients literally doesn't even know the source of final days. They thought whatever calamity they'd endured already pass and now it was the time to get their beloved souls from zodiark. Only one person know the truth behind final days and she didn't share it, not even to her faction.

So I ask, what's her excuse for not telling the Ancients of Meteion's existence?

[Lurina]

I think I'm the one who kicked off the latest argument, and I wish people wouldn't reduce these conversations to pro- vs. anti-Venat.

I think Venat is cool. I think the writing choices surrounding her (and a lot of EW) are absolutely inscrutable. I don't want them to make her into a villain, I want them to quit making those choices so I can stop being incredibly distracted by by the setting's weird moral compass. I'll quit moaning when they quit doing it.