How to fix Paladin

[ArianeEwah]

1. This only hold true in a set static raid scenario, and there you also have to wait for DNC and/or AST (also BLM, SCH/SGE shield prep etc.) for at least 16s. This is not an issue, and it only adds difficulty in programming and ability effect like *outside of combat* stuff. We already have actions with wall of text that half the community can't even be bothered to read, let alone understand it (yeah, I know that's not really a reason, but still...) don't make everything unnecessary complicated.

2. I can get behind that. I would even argue PLD should be able to trigger it themselves, or it auto-triggers after the duration expires, similar to AST star. For anyone saying that PLD has good mitigation with passive block or strong healing on every rotation repeat: other tanks have more healing options even before 84, AND at least 1 additional CD. Also block doesn't work on crits, which can render Sheltron useless (also stun/down for the count debuff). Getting their own Viel shield is hardly a significant buff. (Shield on dps/heal is roughly the same as Shake, ut weaker on tanks, so there is that, too.)

3. You completely break PLD rotation by doing that. You might not want to use 2 Atonements outside FoF window, but during it you wanna use all 3! PLD has the most flexible dps tools to optimise your rotation and dmg output. By cutting their Sword oath stacks, you also cut their options. There is also the point before getting Atonement; you still use 2 full Royal Authority combos, so you can't change Goring blade too much or you risk breaking PLD on every level! Leaving 1 stack of Sword oath unused is unique, while being a gain on most occasion, just leave it be.
On another note - as aodhan said; by reducing spell GCD recast with SkS/trait, and leaving out 1 Atonement, PLD would come closer to a 60s rotation. Adjust spell recast with SkS on physical jobs (PLD/DRK).

4. I kinda agree with you here, but you are selling Hallowed Ground way too low. In contrast to Walking dead, HG shields you from damage which allows you to cheese or outright ignore certain mechanics. WD cannot do that! Same with Superbolide. I agree it should have a lower CD, as Holmgang still remains supreme even after several recast nerfs (some at SE headquaters apparently thinks putting tank busters timings 4-5 min from each other is just right, so only WAR can cover them)
I suggest a CD reduction of WD to 4:30, SB to 5:00 and HG to 5:30. This way, DRK can cover some tank busters that only WAR is currently capable of, while GNB and PLD might see more invul usages than just "once in a life time".

[eagledorf]

you are selling Hallowed Ground way too low. In contrast to Walking dead, HG shields you from damage which allows you to cheese or outright ignore certain mechanics. WD cannot do that! Same with Superbolide. I agree it should have a lower CD, as Holmgang still remains supreme even after several recast nerfs (some at SE headquaters apparently thinks putting tank busters timings 4-5 min from each other is just right, so only WAR can cover them)
I suggest a CD reduction of WD to 4:30, SB to 5:00 and HG to 5:30. This way, DRK can cover some tank busters that only WAR is currently capable of, while GNB and PLD might see more invul usages than just "once in a life time".

So if you look at the current Ex trial as one example (of many), every other tank can ignore the stack tank buster by invulning both. Paladin is the only tank that can't cheese mechanics with invuln, it's PLD that's unique more so than WAR. This carries across every encounter to some degree or the other since 6.0 dropped. Dragonsong Ultimate PLD is there only job that can't invuln in DRK Thordan and have it back for Cauterize, Pandemonium savage PLD is the only job that only gets one invuln for a buster in every turn, etc.

I do agree with you the real problem is the other invuls and Holmgang are also broken. IMO you should have to actually do mechanics and invuln should be for emergencies, not Holmgang every second tank mechanic. If you want tanks to actually have things to do, Holmgang should be about 5 minutes and Hallowed stay at around 7. I doubt SE will fix that though, so the only way remaining to balance the tanks is reduce Hallowed to around 5 minutes so it can cheese everything too.

Regarding adjusting no. 3, with enough potency increase it really doesn't break anything, it just means you always use 2 attonement instead of 3-2. It also means PLD players can finally aim for zero skill speed since it doesn't work on the whole casting combo (I guess an alternative for that is to make skill speed actually work on PLD like somebody else suggested). There are other adjustments that could be done instead, the casting phase could be reduced, this has the advantage of BoV fitting inside shorter party buffs like Battle Litany so in that sense it's a better option than cutting Sword Oath.

PLD definitely doesn't have the most flexible rotation at all, any loss of uptime or missed skill is devastating because the rotation is so rigid you'll miss the next party buff burst window unless you just drop skills from the rotation to press FoF exactly on time.

[ArianeEwah]

snip

As Enkidoh said, your GLD/PLD is level 37, and it shows that you have no clue what you are talking about.

1st: The current ex trial "one of many" examples? Invuln for emergencies? You certainly have no idea just how powerful Hallowed Ground is outside of casual content without any downside, maybe except its CD which you play around with your co-tank. HG and Superbolide negate any damage income which means they can tank stuff without getting any debuffs like dmg downs or vul stacks. It's invaluable in savage raids, e.g. P4s part 1 and 2 mid fight tb, O7s tethers, or practically any tb with debuffs. Also, LD and SB are anything, but "too short"; there are barely any tb timings DRK can make use of LD more than GNB, but WAR is the only exception. And even then GNB gets barely more usages of off SB than PLD off HG. I don't know what you are on about with the current ex trial when you haven't even reached EW levels... your assumption that "this carries across every encounter [...] since 6.0"/6.x is also just wrong! Where did you even get that impression?

2nd: Ofc it breaks PLD rotation! The current iteration of PLD rotation leaves out 1 stack of Sword Oath to keep a ~61s rotation on repeat... that's 1 skipped GCD. Your suggestion is to remove 2 (!) GCDs from PLD rotation plus a dot duration reduction. You will fall under 60s every circle because you can't - and do not want to - avoid SkS on your gear/melds. A dot duration reduction will lead to it falling off during your Req window, too. Study PLD first before you claim your suggestion wouldn't cause any issues.

3rd: PLD doesn't have a flexible rotation? Then what about this?

This isn't your simple 1-2-3-1-2-4-5-5-5-1-2-3-caster burst stuff rinse-and-repeat stuff. Compared to other jobs this is rocket-science level. E6s is another example how good PLD is designed; it's possible to keep 100% uptime with Requiescat during tornado phase (you must disengage from boss). Something unique and an adventage over any other tank!
"Any loss of uptime [...]" Well, guess what: most jobs have this "issue", mostly melee jobs. PLD at ~70+ even has the choice to use Holy Spirit should they deem it necessary, it doesn't even break combos. What do you think GNB and DRK, or any other melee (e.g. MNK) will do? Either nothing or hit their low potency ranged attacks... that's not even an argument. Your goal is too keep uptime as much as possible; if not, use your tools to your advantage. PLD has more options than any other job in that regard!

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

1st: The current ex trial "one of many" examples? Invuln for emergencies? You certainly have no idea just how powerful Hallowed Ground is outside of casual content without any downside, maybe except its CD which you play around with your co-tank. HG and Superbolide negate any damage income which means they can tank stuff without getting any debuffs like dmg downs or vul stacks. It's invaluable in savage raids, e.g. P4s part 1 and 2 mid fight tb, O7s tethers, or practically any tb with debuffs.

While I agree with almost all your points and think PLD is fine, Hallowed/Bolide's "true" immunity is quickly becoming more obsolete as time goes on; the devs have been making more mechanics simply apply debuffs even with 0 damage/invuln. taking P4s for example, invulning a botched rot pass still gives you the damage down, even with true immunity. Hallowed offers no advantage against the Phase 1 tankbuster or phase 2 double buster that the other non true immunities can't do. In fact, Holmgang has a massive advantage in both halves of P4 in being able to immunity the 1st & last tank busters in Phase 1, and both double busters in Phase 2. While I would concede Hallowed is nice for Heart Stake, a DRK can make that TB a joke without their immunity even when taking both hits with aggro manipulation, so I wouldn't exactly give that too many points in hallowed's favor.

Even in DSR, if you immunity the 2nd Heavenly heel in P5, it doesn't block the slashing resistance down with true immunity, meaning you can still get splatted by the last auto of the phase if the invuln was badly timed.

Both Zodiark & the current EX also don't care about true immunity, and will apply their 'this debuff makes autos unlivable' status to you regardless on their TB's. Fight design as a whole has been shifting to take into account cheese methods. Even the unreal trial got changed so death doesn't purge your force against might/nature debuff anymore. While any immunity is a powerful tool, Hallowed's power has been getting weaker over time compared to the other 3. Living Dead's recent buff makes it straight up stronger than Hallowed in basically every situation except extremely niche cases, and also gets a -2min recast timer which can be immensely critical to certain strats (like Holm enjoying soul tether -> HH#1 -> Cauterize -> Ahk 3 in DSR, something not possible with other immunities)

With fight design shifting to not care about true immunity and the huge amount of self heals/healer OGCDs these days to cover basically any problems associated with the other 3, Hallowed's 7min CD is quickly making it the worse immunity in terms of effectiveness. Still a strong CD, but the others are just plain better almost entirely because of their lesser CDs.

[Absurdity]

While I agree with almost all your points and think PLD is fine, Hallowed/Bolide's "true" immunity is quickly becoming more obsolete as time goes on; the devs have been making more mechanics simply apply debuffs even with 0 damage/invuln. taking P4s for example, invulning a botched rot pass still gives you the damage down, even with true immunity. Hallowed offers no advantage against the Phase 1 tankbuster or phase 2 double buster that the other non true immunities can't do. In fact, Holmgang has a massive advantage in both halves of P4 in being able to immunity the 1st & last tank busters in Phase 1, and both double busters in Phase 2. While I would concede Hallowed is nice for Heart Stake, a DRK can make that TB a joke without their immunity even when taking both hits with aggro manipulation, so I wouldn't exactly give that too many points in hallowed's favor.

In P2S both HG and Bolide allowed you to easily keep full uptime during phase 4's Predatory Avarice+Dissociation with 0 risk involved.

[krisatriya]

So if you look at the current Ex trial as one example (of many), every other tank can ignore the stack tank buster by invulning both. Paladin is the only tank that can't cheese mechanics with invuln, it's PLD that's unique more so than WAR. This carries across every encounter to some degree or the other since 6.0 dropped. Dragonsong Ultimate PLD is there only job that can't invuln in DRK Thordan and have it back for Cauterize, Pandemonium savage PLD is the only job that only gets one invuln for a buster in every turn, etc.

I do agree with you the real problem is the other invuls and Holmgang are also broken. IMO you should have to actually do mechanics and invuln should be for emergencies, not Holmgang every second tank mechanic. If you want tanks to actually have things to do, Holmgang should be about 5 minutes and Hallowed stay at around 7. I doubt SE will fix that though, so the only way remaining to balance the tanks is reduce Hallowed to around 5 minutes so it can cheese everything too.

Regarding adjusting no. 3, with enough potency increase it really doesn't break anything, it just means you always use 2 attonement instead of 3-2. It also means PLD players can finally aim for zero skill speed since it doesn't work on the whole casting combo (I guess an alternative for that is to make skill speed actually work on PLD like somebody else suggested). There are other adjustments that could be done instead, the casting phase could be reduced, this has the advantage of BoV fitting inside shorter party buffs like Battle Litany so in that sense it's a better option than cutting Sword Oath.

PLD definitely doesn't have the most flexible rotation at all, any loss of uptime or missed skill is devastating because the rotation is so rigid you'll miss the next party buff burst window unless you just drop skills from the rotation to press FoF exactly on time.

This is my problem playing PLD too, one missed skill and the train wreck.


This isn't your simple 1-2-3-1-2-4-5-5-5-1-2-3-caster burst stuff rinse-and-repeat stuff. Compared to other jobs this is rocket-science level.

exactly this is a rocket science, to much variation and all that will wrecked with single missed skill. Its like taking a math test with gun in your head, one wrong and you are F!

[eagledorf]

Exactly, it's hilarious somebody could think having a chart for the exact order of buttons you need to push for every encounter and a skill speed number for every ping means Paladin is 'flexible'.


Meanwhile, DRK and WAR don't even have boards on the Balance for discussion at all because as long as you can faceroll once a minute it doesn't matter what you do. I guess technically if you have a stroke you could accidentally overcap resources or something...