Shield/Pure Healer Split Feedback

[Supersnow845]

But optimal individual play is based entirely on optimal group play. Not a single DPS rotation out there is based solely on the job itself, it's amalgamated with the utilities the party brings. Hence why you have to look at the bigger picture.

Well except for the selfish classes (who except for BLM do often do a bit of messing around to stick more of their higher damage windows into burst)

But still reliance on others to do more damage and align buffs is a very different concept than “the optimal group scenario is for this DPS to not take damage, the optimal individual situation for the healer is to not let that DPS die even if I lose DPS personally” and that sort of situation is completely independent of group coordination for raid DPS

[Rilifane]

And in the times it's NOT optimal, it won't matter, since no fight will be decided by one 295 potency cast being missed.

The question of whether something is necessary or not is and never will be part of discussions of optimal gameplay specifically because optimal gameplay aims to go above and beyond of what is necessary to clear by nature. That won't change unless SE designs a fight which requires optimal gameplay which they understandably won't - that would set every social media on fire, they already came close to it with Midas.
As such, optimal gameplay includes and requires that you will clear but does not care about if it was necessary to clear or not. It is an approach that aims at maximizing personal and group improvement, not leaving it at clearing alone.
So the argument "But it wasn't necessary anyway and if it was, your group has other problems" is completely besides the point.

Optimal gameplay can be seen from a personal and a group point of view and while they overlap most of the time, it's not the same.
Any increase in pDPS will automatically also increase the overall rDPS but it's generally not considered optimizing group play unless the rDPS gain surpasses the pDPS gain. An example of this would be a BLM using Transpose lines outside burst windows. Nobody else but the BLM benefits from this at this time and as such, it's simply personal optimization.
A BLM banking Xenos to dump them during burst windows on the other hand is more part of group optimization because this specifically targets maximizing other people's buffs. Personal vs group optimization isn't split into "selfish gameplay that hurts others" vs "good gameplay that benefits others".

So yes, optimizing gameplay can definitely mean using a GCD heal - if it was necessary to survive and/or saved further dps losses down the line. Every GCD heal that does not fall into this category is not optimal and it doesn't matter if the additional Glareoileficosis would've made a difference or not for getting the clear.
You do understand what optimal gameplay means but you bring something into the discussion that has no place in it: would it make a difference?
Doesn't matter.
A BLM using Transpose lines won't make a difference.
An AST catching burst phases with cards won't make a difference.
A greedy melee getting one more GCD won't make a difference.
Not even all of it combined would. Not even at min ilvl in current savage.

The framework of what is optimal is set by SE and whether we like it or not is another question that doesn't matter in these discussions. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be brought up. Just not when number crunching.
I personally don't like that optimizing healer means doing less instead of more when it means doing more for every other class. But the framework SE gave us is that dps is king and they keep enforcing it by switching from vuln ups to damage downs (which made a GCD heal or two from healers optimal if it meant the whole party could cheese a mechanic), by avoiding as much controlled dps mechanics as possible, by handing out more and more mitigation/ heal tools to non-healers, by keeping incoming damage the same at best and by keeping everything perfectly predictable and scripted.
But it's still optimal.

[Renathras]

So the argument "But it wasn't necessary anyway and if it was, your group has other problems" is completely besides the point.

No, it's not.

The point I was contesting was talking out both sides, simultaneously talking about NORMAL MODES and WHAT IS OPTIMAL, which makes no sense. Optimization matters in high end encounters. It's irrelevant otherwise. You can't hand-wave away the actual discussion. That makes no sense.

Optimization can include things like getting a melee or BLM more uptime, or shielding the party to get around a mitigation or healing check to use LB on damage instead, or, as I pointed out, saving GCDs later by freeing up oGCDs that would otherwise need to be consumed in place of the shielding, costing a greater number of overall DPS GCDs over the course of the fight.

And we can go around and around in circles, but all that matters is this:

Deploy Crit Adlo is an extremely powerful ability in specific situations - which occur frequently enough to justify its existence - and offers additional optimization options for high end groups running high end content, as well as offering a useful ability for progression and health buffers for content when at lower ilevels.

People wanting to hate on it no matter what and against all logic and reason may dance around this all they want, that's the end of the argument. And that's why it is often optimal to use. And again, WHEN it is not, it is irrelevant.

[Rilifane]

You managed to completely miss the point.
Or maybe it was deliberate because of our past interactions, who knows. After all, you felt the need to explain something as if arguing against me when I made the exact same point in my post.

[Renathras]

I mean, you were the one being condescending to me and completely missing my point. Not once but (at least) twice.

No, there's no deliberate on my part. Perhaps you're projecting your own actions, but I'll leave that for you to figure out yourself.

We were talking about things being strong or not. Someone brought up lost DPS. Others pointed out how it could be a DPS gain. That person held that it is always a cost - that is important enough to debate over and decide whether the ability is "worthless" or not over, mind you - but also noted they don't play Ultimates, Savages, or even Extremes, and was talking about Normal content. Content in which it is completely irrelevant and you can clear most of without even using most of your oGCDs to begin with.

So I was pointing out the absurdity of discussing optimal DPS in normal content while simultaneously acting high and mighty and pretending the skill has no value in high end content. Content where it CAN BE and often IS optimal and extremely powerful, even when it isn't.

So if you wish to critique someone's point, make sure you've read the room, the context, and understand what they're arguing in the context of what is being discussed, not in some unrelated vacuum of "ackshually..." that isn't relevant to the actual discussion being had.

[Rilifane]

No, there's no deliberate on my part. Perhaps you're projecting your own actions, but I'll leave that for you to figure out yourself.

Not at all.
I disagree with some people a lot but I'm entirely capable of agreeing with someone if they make a good point. And I disagree with Gemina a lot but it's still true that a Spreadlo isn't free by nature and that using Dissipation doesn't automatically make it free.

We were talking about things being strong or not. Someone brought up lost DPS. Others pointed out how it could be a DPS gain. That person held that it is always a cost - that is important enough to debate over and decide whether the ability is "worthless" or not over, mind you - but also noted they don't play Ultimates, Savages, or even Extremes, and was talking about Normal content.

And that is exactly what I disagreed with as well as you might have noticed.
Here:
"I disagree though that Spreadlo is near worthless or a relic of the past."

Content in which it is completely irrelevant and you can clear most of without even using most of your oGCDs to begin with.

I know that Gemina doesn't participate in endgame content.

But one thing: optimizing is not limited to Ex and above and perhaps that is where the misunderstanding stems from.
You can optimize in all content and doing it is independent from the need to do it to increase your chances for a kill. That was the point I made and where I disagreed and still disagree with you.
The need to optimize doesn't even exist in Ex and Savage. Even at min ilvl you don't seem to need it from what I've seen in p1s to p4s part 1 - the only fight I can't speak for is p4s part 2 at min ilvl. So even in the vast majority of endgame content it is irrelevant in terms of "Is it necessary for a kill or not?".
You can still clear with comfort GCD shielding every aoe, without greeding for another GCD on melee or caster, without uptime strats, without shield-cheesing mechanics, without GCD shielding to be able to use melee lb3.

Despite all this it is completely valid to optimize in Ex, Savage above min ilvl and at min ilvl - and yes, even in alli raids, dungeons and normal raids. Precisely because the fact that something, as you said, is irrelevant and doesn't matter doesn't contest the point that it might be suboptimal.
If something was optimal, it was optimal even if it wasn't needed for a clear.
If something was suboptimal, it was suboptimal even if it wouldn't have made a difference in terms of clearing content.
I never said that something is always suboptimal or always optimal, on the contrary. Just that it making a difference or not doesn't change the facts.

It sounded as if your stance is "It (Spreadlo or any other GCD heal) can be optimal but even if it is not it doesn't matter because a kill shouldn't rely on 295 potency from a Broil" and while it's true that kill shouldn't and likely never will be decided by one Broil more or less and also true that GCD heals can be optimal (as I stressed in my other post) it does not mean that it's automatically irrelevant in a discussion about optimal gameplay just because it wasn't and shouldn't be needed to even get a kill.

I hope my point is clearer now.
As for your digs... I will simply opt to ignore them unless you'd prefer to have mud fight over the internet.

[Sebazy]

P4S pt1 needs significantly more optimisation than pt2 at min ilvl for whatever reason++

On topic, 100% optimisation isn't needed for the overwhelming majority of content out there, doubly so as a healer. However for many people, improving and chasing their own performance metrics IS a good chunk of the enjoyment.

I have great logs in most casual content and I can promise you it's not because I'm legitimately good, it's simply because I try hard.

[Mortex]

Of course a adlo spread isn’t optimal but if it gives you 3 less gcd heals in a situation like god king thordarn phase because you either swap mitigation a bit around or it just blocks 3 out of 6/7 hits in a 1-1-6 stack. Same with gigaflare, first hit with a adlo spread and decent mitigation blocks 1 hit full and that safes in most cases 1 gcd heal from both healer.

[Renathras]

All I'll say then is this:

There are times it's optimal.

There are times it is a massive buffer that pays off for it being EVER. SO. MINIMALLY. SLIGHTLY. sub-optimal.

And you can only do it on a 90 sec CD, so it's not something you're like to use on CD anyway but rather using deliberately at key times when you can get the most out of it and it makes things overall better than they otherwise would be - e.g. optimal/optimizing.

And there are times when it is extremely useful and beneficial, hence, very worth-full.

If you want to believe otherwise, on any or all points, you are free to do so and I will not contest it further.

[NobleWinter]

You really took the time to say that Adlo Spread can be both optimal and sub-optimal ������������������

These forums are definitely amusing if nothing else.