Shield/Pure Healer Split Feedback

[Kabzy]

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So it's not always even a DPS loss on the fight as a whole since optimal is based on the WHOLE PARTY not a single character. If a Deploy Critlo now means a WHM won't have to cast 2x Cure 3s later, that's a net DPS gain for the party.

Ironically I think it's actually you who doesn't understand what optimal and suboptimal means. It's not the people who shaped the game into what it is right now, the reason people don't want to spend GCDs on healing and why it is optimal is because there's no need to. In fact outside of ultimate, there would be no reason to cast any healing GCDs. You're never in this scenario you mentioned at the end if everyone was playing optimally. Using a GCD heal to rectify a mistake will never be seen as optimal play.

Granted not everyone does play optimally, in fact most people don't, but theorycrafting is a lot different to actual gameplay. And this applies to many scenarios. AST, for example, is only better than WHM in the most optimal of groups. If you go down from top percentiles, you'll notice WHM takes over in damage. In fact for some duties like DSR, WHM is currently at the top. Nobody talks about that though because theorycrafting is based around the jobs maximum potential, and in that scenario AST wins. You can't just pick and choose when you want to look at the top end of play and when not.

I do agree though that it would be a nicer system for healers if we did have to use GCD heals more. Personally I'd be a fan of reverting to the ARR days where you have 1 emergency heal and the rest GCDs. But this is a conversation that has been had many times and I don't think it's getting anyone anywhere.

[vetch]

Ironically I think it's actually you who doesn't understand what optimal and suboptimal means. It's not the people who shaped the game into what it is right now, the reason people don't want to spend GCDs on healing and why it is optimal is because there's no need to. In fact outside of ultimate, there would be no reason to cast any healing GCDs. You're never in this scenario you mentioned at the end if everyone was playing optimally. Using a GCD heal to rectify a mistake will never be seen as optimal play.

You're conflating optimal group play with optimal individual play. Optimal group play is never needing to GCD heal in any content after ARR because everyone's on top of their game. Optimal individual play, on the part of a healer, can mean GCD healing to rectify the mistakes of another individual not playing optimally, to prevent the greater DPS loss that would come of letting them die.

[Renathras]

Ironically I think it's actually you who doesn't understand what optimal and suboptimal means.

While I agree partly with some of your points in some ways, I fully DO understand what optimal and suboptimal mean. If you using a GCD heal means TWO (or more) GCDs are freed between you and your cohealer for damage, then that's a net gain. You note that any party member taking avoidable damage is subobtimal, but as a healer, you can't control THAT. All you can control is the recovery from it. And people were giving actual examples from Ultimate where it is, in fact, optimal.

It won't always be optimal, but there are times it will be, so it's hardly "worthless". And in the times it's NOT optimal, it won't matter, since no fight will be decided by one 295 potency cast being missed.

Out of your whole post I take issue with this.

Note the quote from me you posted there:

WHM has no Succor equivalent to soften the blow.

Medica 2 can heal more than Succor (which is arguably more akin to Medica 1), but it can't reduce the amount of a party member's health bar that goes down. Succor can, albeit slightly. WHM's only way to reduce incoming damage taken is Temperance, which is on a 2 min CD.

Keep in mind in the post I was kind of speaking to playing WHM vs the other healers when a 4 man (or any) boss does a raidwide (it's just more noticeable in 4 mans because you don't have that second healer to lean on so you see what your Job's limitations are more clearly), WHM doesn't EVEN HAVE something like Succor. It's Temperance and then nothing for 2 mins until it comes off CD. Yes yes, you don't NEED mitigation (generally) in 4 mans, but the point is I'm used to rolling through them on the other healers (muscle memory can be a good thing), and it's glaringly obvious WHM is missing out there. Louisouix and Y'Shtola (end of ARR) both had a bubble and were CNJ/WHMs.

You're conflating optimal group play with optimal individual play. Optimal group play is never needing to GCD heal in any content after ARR because everyone's on top of their game. Optimal individual play, on the part of a healer, can mean GCD healing to rectify the mistakes of another individual not playing optimally, to prevent the greater DPS loss that would come of letting them die.

This.

[Rilifane]

And in the times it's NOT optimal, it won't matter, since no fight will be decided by one 295 potency cast being missed.

The question of whether something is necessary or not is and never will be part of discussions of optimal gameplay specifically because optimal gameplay aims to go above and beyond of what is necessary to clear by nature. That won't change unless SE designs a fight which requires optimal gameplay which they understandably won't - that would set every social media on fire, they already came close to it with Midas.
As such, optimal gameplay includes and requires that you will clear but does not care about if it was necessary to clear or not. It is an approach that aims at maximizing personal and group improvement, not leaving it at clearing alone.
So the argument "But it wasn't necessary anyway and if it was, your group has other problems" is completely besides the point.

Optimal gameplay can be seen from a personal and a group point of view and while they overlap most of the time, it's not the same.
Any increase in pDPS will automatically also increase the overall rDPS but it's generally not considered optimizing group play unless the rDPS gain surpasses the pDPS gain. An example of this would be a BLM using Transpose lines outside burst windows. Nobody else but the BLM benefits from this at this time and as such, it's simply personal optimization.
A BLM banking Xenos to dump them during burst windows on the other hand is more part of group optimization because this specifically targets maximizing other people's buffs. Personal vs group optimization isn't split into "selfish gameplay that hurts others" vs "good gameplay that benefits others".

So yes, optimizing gameplay can definitely mean using a GCD heal - if it was necessary to survive and/or saved further dps losses down the line. Every GCD heal that does not fall into this category is not optimal and it doesn't matter if the additional Glareoileficosis would've made a difference or not for getting the clear.
You do understand what optimal gameplay means but you bring something into the discussion that has no place in it: would it make a difference?
Doesn't matter.
A BLM using Transpose lines won't make a difference.
An AST catching burst phases with cards won't make a difference.
A greedy melee getting one more GCD won't make a difference.
Not even all of it combined would. Not even at min ilvl in current savage.

The framework of what is optimal is set by SE and whether we like it or not is another question that doesn't matter in these discussions. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be brought up. Just not when number crunching.
I personally don't like that optimizing healer means doing less instead of more when it means doing more for every other class. But the framework SE gave us is that dps is king and they keep enforcing it by switching from vuln ups to damage downs (which made a GCD heal or two from healers optimal if it meant the whole party could cheese a mechanic), by avoiding as much controlled dps mechanics as possible, by handing out more and more mitigation/ heal tools to non-healers, by keeping incoming damage the same at best and by keeping everything perfectly predictable and scripted.
But it's still optimal.

[Renathras]

So the argument "But it wasn't necessary anyway and if it was, your group has other problems" is completely besides the point.

No, it's not.

The point I was contesting was talking out both sides, simultaneously talking about NORMAL MODES and WHAT IS OPTIMAL, which makes no sense. Optimization matters in high end encounters. It's irrelevant otherwise. You can't hand-wave away the actual discussion. That makes no sense.

Optimization can include things like getting a melee or BLM more uptime, or shielding the party to get around a mitigation or healing check to use LB on damage instead, or, as I pointed out, saving GCDs later by freeing up oGCDs that would otherwise need to be consumed in place of the shielding, costing a greater number of overall DPS GCDs over the course of the fight.

And we can go around and around in circles, but all that matters is this:

Deploy Crit Adlo is an extremely powerful ability in specific situations - which occur frequently enough to justify its existence - and offers additional optimization options for high end groups running high end content, as well as offering a useful ability for progression and health buffers for content when at lower ilevels.

People wanting to hate on it no matter what and against all logic and reason may dance around this all they want, that's the end of the argument. And that's why it is often optimal to use. And again, WHEN it is not, it is irrelevant.

[Kabzy]

You're conflating optimal group play with optimal individual play. Optimal group play is never needing to GCD heal in any content after ARR because everyone's on top of their game. Optimal individual play, on the part of a healer, can mean GCD healing to rectify the mistakes of another individual not playing optimally, to prevent the greater DPS loss that would come of letting them die.

You're not wrong in that those are indeed two separate things, but I don't think anyone really theorycrafts based on individual play so it seems like a moot point to me. I can once again go back to my point on WHM and AST. If we're talking optimal individual play, WHM knocks AST out of the park, but we all know that isn't the case because there's an entire 7 other people to consider.

[Supersnow845]

You're not wrong in that those are indeed two separate things, but I don't think anyone really theorycrafts based on individual play so it seems like a moot point to me. I can once again go back to my point on WHM and AST. If we're talking optimal individual play, WHM knocks AST out of the park, but we all know that isn't the case because there's an entire 7 other people to consider.

Optimal Individual play vs optimal group play is a very different thing than pDPS vs rDPS

[Kabzy]

Optimal Individual play vs optimal group play is a very different thing than pDPS vs rDPS

But optimal individual play is based entirely on optimal group play. Not a single DPS rotation out there is based solely on the job itself, it's amalgamated with the utilities the party brings. Hence why you have to look at the bigger picture.

[Supersnow845]

But optimal individual play is based entirely on optimal group play. Not a single DPS rotation out there is based solely on the job itself, it's amalgamated with the utilities the party brings. Hence why you have to look at the bigger picture.

Well except for the selfish classes (who except for BLM do often do a bit of messing around to stick more of their higher damage windows into burst)

But still reliance on others to do more damage and align buffs is a very different concept than “the optimal group scenario is for this DPS to not take damage, the optimal individual situation for the healer is to not let that DPS die even if I lose DPS personally” and that sort of situation is completely independent of group coordination for raid DPS