Glamours: Re-work the entire system.

[Deveryn]

Not joining you guys throwing punches, but just to give a heads up on this...

Please don't ask for new races.

At least not just yet. It hasn't gone well, the devs are not being consistent, there's stuff missing and overall it's clear that the situation is not one where we can afford to ask for more.

Perhaps in the future, when all their files have been organized and the team has more resources than they do now.

It is okay to daydream. But don't fall into the rabbit hole...

I think it goes without saying, but then again we need to consider who we're dealing with.

Once they finish lionesses, I think it's safe to say even they've had enough and want no more. The workload is bad enough as it is.

[Midareyukki]

I'm not asking for new races. Though I would like them to complete the ones they have released.

I know. I understood from your post. You said you agreed to everything Darthgummibear has asked for but the races. Because the latest ones are so incomplete and giving them grievances.

I'm just telling people in general off of what you said though: careful when wishing for more races, because you will likely not like the result if you get them so soon.

I think it goes without saying, but then again we need to consider who we're dealing with.

Once they finish lionesses, I think it's safe to say even they've had enough and want no more. The workload is bad enough as it is.

Definitely.

But, yeah, back on topic: I do agree Glamours need a revision. My question is how much work that would entail, especially on how the items are organized code-wise.

[Deveryn]

Definitely.

But, yeah, back on topic: I do agree Glamours need a revision. My question is how much work that would entail, especially on how the items are organized code-wise.

Yeah, back on topic...


I was looking back at the 4.2 patch notes

By this point in the Stormblood expansion, the team was already set in their ways with gearing up jobs as they do now. The dresser is basically an afterthought. Expecting them to be able to change the system to the extent people want might be out of the question.

Alternatives should be discussed. A lot of people tend to bring up the accessories that are the biggest problem for storage. It would be easier if there were all class versions of these items available. Perhaps they could go on the respective vendors for a smaller token cost.

Other items should just be easier to obtain again, like alliance gear from past expansions being sold somewhere for tomes or whatever.

[Larirawiel]

But, yeah, back on topic: I do agree Glamours need a revision. My question is how much work that would entail, especially on how the items are organized code-wise.

Without the sourcecode of the game, we can only speculate. Maybe the whole glam dresser module is a mess full of handwritten SQL. Then it will be very difficult to make changes here. Because many tools, which help you with refactoring, do not work here. So you can only make a change, try it out, make another change, try it out etc. It is very time consuming and it can happen, that a code path could be forgotten in the manual tests. And it does not work when the patch goes live. But again, it is only a speculation.



Cheers

[Midareyukki]

Maybe the whole glam dresser module is a mess full of handwritten SQL.

...I don't know how you managed to make an eldritch abomination worse than anything Lovecraft could come up with.

But you have, and now I am frightened.

SQL already gives me nightmares and makes me very happy that we have tools that automate the process.

[Equitable_Remedy]

Ok fine then remove glamour restrictions for which we already know there isn't any legitimate reason. There is absolutely no excuse for them to continue to release gear with these limitations.

While not the topic of this thread nor the topic of my post, I disagree. I'll just repost my response from another thread:

I don't really agree that any restriction hinders creativity nor do I think that 'creativity' is the only measure of the glam system.

For instance, I think it valuable for different classes and different armor weights to generally look different - it keeps things interesting. In fact, a complete lack of restriction can ultimately lead to lots of sameness - you see this with certain unrestricted glams that then become ubiquitous.

So no, I don't think that the restrictions that exist are a hinderance, and I think that, in fact, some increase creativity by keeping everyone from making the same choices.

Let me borrow a quote from Prof. Mordin Solus:

All scientific advancement due to intellegence overcoming, compensating, for limitations. Can't carry a load, so invent wheel. Can't catch food, so invent spear. Limitations. No limitations, no advancement.

[GeminiReed]

I mean, it would likely be more than that if they ever added inflation to subscriptions lol. Mmo sub pricing hasn't changed in at least 20 years.

Advances in technology and manufacturing capabilities have made the cost of computing power and network speed and bandwith significantly cheaper. While salaries have increased they've been more than offset by the decreasing operational expenses.

Have you read the classic "The Mythical Man-Month" -- just for starters?

MMM explains the dangers of throwing multiple people on the same task. A sub-system rewrite should be self-contained enough that a small dedicated team can work on it without requiring significant amounts of coordination with the larger organization. "Should be" being the key assumption. Who knows what vile hacks still lurk in the framework? It's those areas that need the most focus to allow them to scale the development staff.

...I don't know how you managed to make an eldritch abomination worse than anything Lovecraft could come up with.

But you have, and now I am frightened.

SQL already gives me nightmares and makes me very happy that we have tools that automate the process.

If you think that's horrifiying then I hope you haven't tripped across the rumors that character data is stored as a flat file in a filesystem instead of something sane like an RDBMS.

[Midareyukki]

If you think that's horrifiying then I hope you haven't tripped across the rumors that character data is stored as a flat file in a filesystem instead of something sane like an RDBMS.

Nah I'm not in IT, I just had a bad run-in with SQL when localizing software.

But I'd find it believable if our character data were stored just individual .txt files per account, given how hard the devs insist some improvements are.

[Larirawiel]

...I don't know how you managed to make an eldritch abomination worse than anything Lovecraft could come up with.

But you have, and now I am frightened.

SQL already gives me nightmares and makes me very happy that we have tools that automate the process.

SQL can be fine if it is formatted properly. But the problem is, if you call SQL from another programming languages, the IDEs and compilers cannot help you. Because the SQL statement is only a string and strings are simply data, which is not related with the programming language. If you have somewhere a typo or the SQL statement is simply wrong then the programm will still compile fine and you get your exe. You can only notice, that there is an error when the wrong SQL statement is sent to the server.

And this makes bigger changes so difficult. Every time, you make a change in a database table, you have to manually check all SQL statements in your programm, which could be affected by the change. Because no tool can tell you this. You can surely write integration tests. But it is also very time consuming writing and running them.

And this is the reason why bigger projects use ORMs.


Cheers

[Midareyukki]

SQL can be fine if it is formatted properly.

I just had a bad run-in with SQL when localizing software.

in my defence i should not have been messing with that...

So no, I don't think that the restrictions that exist are a hinderance, and I think that, in fact, some increase creativity by keeping everyone from making the same choices.

Yeah no, this is unrealistic.

Your whole premiss hinges on the fact that "there is a lot of stuff to wear between roles, so people will look different both within their role and outside of their role".

But riddle me this, when nothing fits you right because your body stretches gear models to look like you've become an opera singer, what will you choose to wear? That premiss only applies if you ignore personal taste and whether the option is good to begin with.

People wear glamours to look good and feel diverse. Limitations of any kind already put restrictions on diversity, as they lower the choice pool. But it doesn't stop there. Because then from that choice pool there's personal taste and whether or not the gear fits the race or the class. Why do you think people complain that Casters like SGE or RDM have too many robes? I'll be a bit hypocritical here, but let's pretend the generic crafted\mogstation stuff doesn't exist. By your standards, there's variety and a chance for originality... if all you care about are robes. And if you don't, the selections available to you are slim and limited, making you look like everyone else who doesn't like only wearing robes. Even the generic crafted\mogstation stuff doesn't offer that much variety. I have a friend who says wearing them cheapens the look you'd have by going for the generic option. You don't make creativity by causing a minority, that's not what we observe here.

Why do you think most Hrothgar players use either the face my character is using or Runar's face? It's the same thing: the other two faces are often seen as "too ugly" by some people and thus are unpopular. Making most Hrothgars look the exact same. The existence of Hrothgar with Bajsaljen or Kimahri faces isn't a counter-argument, because we're talking about statistics here. When the option is viewed as ugly and repels people away from it, you create unpopularity. Making the ones that are perceived as "better" by the majority become unoriginal and repetitive. And "going for what looks better" isn't a sign of unoriginality. People just don't feel comfortable with other options, nothing wrong with that. I chose this face despite loving the Kimahri face and absolutely loathing Runar's face (I nicknamed it "catfish face"). I could very well go for the Kimahri face. But I didn't, because this one looked better. Simple as that. It's not my fault other people thought the same.