Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[LianaThorne]

It's not about the "obviousness" - it's about the maturity and tone of what you're saying. There's a clear difference in tone when you acknowledge something is your opinion and express a desire versus declaring you are right and making a demand.



It simply declares "the story is bad right now because I say so, and this game will fail if the writers don't change everything they're doing to suit me." That is either trolling or just plain toxic, exactly like I said



And yet, that's exactly what certain people here do on the daily...



A classic non-defense when you know you have nothing. Sad. Also, I never said there weren't any "good posts" - in fact quite the opposite, I specifically pointed out entire threads of constructive critiques that stayed respectfully. Finding a random post or two to quote doesn't "prove" anything other than what I had just said...



Because that actually isn't an opinion. If you go to YT as I suggested and look at those videos, you will in fact see hundreds of different people posting about how much they're enjoying the game, and those will in fact be the overwhelming majority of the comments. And if you peruse these pages here, you will in fact see the same small group of people posting repeatedly in this topic and others. We reach an impasse when it seems there is a lack of knowledge over what an opinion actually is.

Side note, this entire response is the opposite of mature.

[Lauront]

It's not about the "obviousness" - it's about the maturity and tone of what you're saying. There's a clear difference in tone when you acknowledge something is your opinion and express a desire versus declaring you are right and making a demand.

If I am of the expectation that the person I am discussing something with is intellectually mature enough to understand that whatever I am saying is my point of view, why would I patronise them by repeatedly pointing this out? To me there is no difference here other than spelling out the obvious - and I am guilty of this myself.

It simply declares "the story is bad right now because I say so, and this game will fail if the writers don't change everything they're doing to suit me." That is either trolling or just plain toxic, exactly like I said

Only if you choose to read it that way. It's a fairly synoptic statement. You can press the person putting it forward for further explanation if you want more detail as to the why. I am going to quote it back to you again to give you another opportunity to explain how it's "trolling" or "toxic" since your reading of it doesn't follow:

"This story is not constructed as well as more recent single player titles, and if they want to regard FFXIV as one then they need to do better than what we're seeing now with this party."

Without knowing the poster's intent, there is no obvious reason why this should be regarded as trolling. There is nothing "toxic" here. There are certainly assumptions and factual claims being made, and the person's *gasp* opinion on the fact that SE will need to do better than they currently are with respect to a major element of single player games. Without commenting specifically as a parallel to SE's writing here - if I am offered a coffee and it tastes bad, by a cafe, and I say they need to do much better if they want to retain their position as a reputable cafe, please articulate to me in clear English how this is "toxic", along with a definition of that term to explain how it's even relevant.

And yet, that's exactly what certain people here do on the daily...

Many of us are not even fully convinced the writers read these fora. The notion that we can demand anything of them, beyond the extent of voicing our feedback and maintaining a sub/certain level of spending on the product, is simply ludicrous. The devs retain the absolute discretion to reject any "demands" made of them and habitually and routinely do - it is exceedingly common in business for customers to make requests framed as demands; they can never be anything but a request, something the business itself understands. Therefore, for you to try spin it into something it isn't is intellectually dishonest, or suggests you're (wilfully) incapable of understanding hyperbole or, separately, statements such as the above, with the "need to" wording, which is subservient to a conditional. It is of a kind with you constantly trying to claim people critical of the game are in a minority - what difference does stating this make to anything? It very much reads as you trying to play forum cop. Whilst we're in the realm of unsolicited advice: understand that people will only put up with that for a time.

A classic non-defense when you know you have nothing. Sad. Also, I never said there weren't any "good posts" - in fact quite the opposite, I specifically pointed out entire threads of constructive critiques that stayed respectfully. Finding a random post or two to quote doesn't "prove" anything other than what I had just said...

Your rather amusing grandstanding aside, they are not randomly selected posts - I chose them because the poster in question did a very good job of expanding on why many of us choose to offer feedback here and what our expectations realistically are.

Because that actually isn't an opinion. If you go to YT as I suggested and look at those videos, you will in fact see hundreds of different people posting about how much they're enjoying the game, and those will in fact be the overwhelming majority of the comments. And if you peruse these pages here, you will in fact see the same small group of people posting repeatedly in this topic and others.

Ah, so you're presenting the forum being a toxic "cesspool" as an objective fact, along with all the other claims you made there. I've addressed why the "evidence" you keep providing isn't particularly good in the past. Yeah, people commenting on fan content like the game. Illuminating. Who'd have guessed it? As an aside: do you think negative comments tend to be left up?

We reach an impasse when it seems there is a lack of knowledge over what an opinion actually is.

On your part, certainly. You repeatedly bleating at people that they're a "minority" accomplishes... what, precisely?

[aveyond-dreams]

I still struggle to see how this game would be worsened if a return to Heavensward style writing ever occurred, as it is still regarded as one the strongest expansions. Why can’t we have strong character arcs with significant emotional growth again?

Would anyone posting in this thread actually be turned off from playing if we saw a return to Heavensward’s way of writing the MSQ?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I still struggle to see how this game would be worsened if a return to Heavensward style writing ever occurred, as it is still regarded as one the strongest expansions. Why can’t we have strong character arcs with significant emotional growth again?

Would anyone posting in this thread actually be turned off from playing if we saw a return to Heavensward’s way of writing the MSQ?

I too, would like more serious moogle quests

[Avidria]

I too, would like more serious moogle quests

Real talk the stupid hide and seek quests in Churning Mists have ingrained a strong, visceral dislike of Moogles in me. I can't stand them. It's like a pavlovian wave of irritation every time I see one.

And, I mean, obviously I'd like to see good storytelling going forward. I will also say though that the warrior of darkness arc in Heavensward was one of my least favorite parts of the expansion, and Shadowbringers frankly redeemed what felt like an incomplete and somewhat out of place storyline at the time I first ran through it.

[aveyond-dreams]

I too, would like more serious moogle quests

A fair trade off for some higher stakes for the main cast along with the removal and retirement of characters once they have served their purpose then.

[CrownySuccubus]

Over the many years that I've posted on this forum I've always made it a point to extend an offer to agree to disagree where common ground cannot be found. I'm not here to argue.

Except you almost always extend offer to "agree to disagree" while couching it within one further attempt to disprove or undermine your opponent's argument. Such as in this post right here The classic "running away while firing one last bullet" trick. And then you start "subtweeting", talking about "some posters" (often in entirely different threads) in passive-aggressive posts in more attempts to discredit said arguments while pretending you don't want to argue.

I don't recall Lauront, Theodric, Aveyond, or any of the "regulars" et al making any such demands. Respectfully, Mr. Post Moogle may I request your citations and registration please?

Hilariously, the last time you ran in and demanded "proofs" and "citations" of what they were saying, you got it and then never responded.

But if you need more, here you are.

Agreed, the main point is that the scions are still a cast with several issues in their writing that should be addressed. If not, then it would be more beneficial to replace them with sufficiently fleshed out characters. 10 years of them is a decently long run, and 10 more that still relies on the emotional weight of events that happened a decade ago won't make for a good reception from the playerbase outside their fans.

Many of us are not even fully convinced the writers read these fora. The notion that we can demand anything of them, beyond the extent of voicing our feedback and maintaining a sub/certain level of spending on the product, is simply ludicrous. The devs retain the absolute discretion to reject any "demands" made of them and habitually and routinely do - it is exceedingly common in business for customers to make requests framed as demands; they can never be anything but a request, something the business itself understands. Therefore, for you to try spin it into something it isn't is intellectually dishonest, or suggests you're (wilfully) incapable of understanding hyperbole or, separately, statements such as the above, with the "need to" wording, which is subservient to a conditional. It is of a kind with you constantly trying to claim people critical of the game are in a minority - what difference does stating this make to anything? It very much reads as you trying to play forum cop. Whilst we're in the realm of unsolicited advice: understand that people will only put up with that for a time.

So what I'm gathering from these recent posts from you, Theodric and Senti is that your new group strategy is to focus on the semantics of the word "demand", as if that somehow is relevant. We can change the word "demand" to "urge", and nothing would change. The point remains that you, Aveyond, Theodric, Rulakir and the rest of the clique continue to peddle the argument that certain things in the story (burgers, humor, the Scions in general, etc.) are objectively bad and that it is imperative that SE listen to your criticisms in order to save the game for the silent masses that agree with you, or else the game will decline in quality or even die. I suppose that, in the attempt try and make this look less forceful than it is, you wish to avoid the negative connotations of calling it a "demand".

But, it doesn't matter if the word you use to describe this urge, advocate, assert, or whatever. Calling it a "demand" also works just fine, since this sort of action still qualifies under SEVERAL definitions of the term. Whether we're talking about this as a consumer demand, an "insistence" or an "urgent need", it's still a "demand".

[aveyond-dreams]

Again, all I want is a better story.

[Iscah]

A fair trade off for some higher stakes for the main cast along with the removal and retirement of characters once they have served their purpose then.

What removal and retirement?

This was the expansion that...

- only killed off characters that were "local" to its narrative arc, while leaving the main cast untouched (a negative death rate, if anything)

- undid sacrifices already made by returning nearly all the Scions to the living cast

- revived Nanamo

- started the business of fakeout deaths with Aymeric getting stabbed and then being perfectly fine, and then did it again with Vidofnir

- also saved Estinien through the power of friendship with no lasting impacts

Would anyone posting in this thread actually be turned off from playing if we saw a return to Heavensward’s way of writing the MSQ?

Probably not, but we'd have to be able to notice a difference first.

[Lauront]

So what I'm gathering from these recent posts from you, Theodric and Senti is that your new group strategy is to focus on the semantics of the word "demand", as if that somehow is relevant. We can change the word "demand" to "urge", and nothing would change. The point remains that you, Aveyond, Theodric, Rulakir and the rest of the clique continue to peddle the argument that certain things in the story (burgers, humor, the Scions in general, etc.) are objectively bad and that it is imperative that SE listen to your criticisms in order to save the game for the silent masses that agree with you, or else the game will decline in quality or even die. I suppose that, in the attempt try and make this look less forceful than it is, you wish to avoid the negative connotations of calling it a "demand".

"Group strategy" is a very interesting spin on it, as is the word "clique", when it is simply my own take on that particular point. But while we're on the topic: forceful in what sense and why is it significant?

I don't recall ever claiming it is imperative for SE to listen to anything I have to say or that it converts to some "silent majority" viewpoint - SE can do whatever it wants and I can likewise do whatever I want, all the way up to unsubbing/not buying future products of theirs. Obviously I am offering the feedback in the hopes that they will listen to me, as do we all.