Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[LianaThorne]

I know people like to defend complaints with this logic, but it only goes so far.

If you are generally enjoying the game and like the overall direction of it, but have issues with specific elements, it's fair to stick around and voice your hopes that the things you don't like will get fixed.

But if you're really unhappy with it over a long time, or the things you object to are core elements like where the writer wants to take the story, and the things you want changed are a matter of taste rather than inherent issues with the game... at some point I think you have to say "this game just isn't for me, and it would have to change at a fundamental level for me to like it, and there are other things that cater better to my taste".

You can be generally satisfied with the way things are but still have complaints with story direction.....like...I really did not like Book 3 or 4 of Harry Potter and had doubts of where the story was heading but that didn't make me just drop Harry Potter as a whole, I still enjoyed Books 1 & 2. Plus, when Book 5 rolled around I was really happy with it and enjoyed the rest of the series.

Again, people are allowed to see issues in games, books, movies, etc. and continue to play, read or watch them. I don't remember any requirement that you have to worship something and see no wrong with it to still engage in things related to said something.

I swear it's like people take it as a personal attack when someone else sees flaws with something they enjoy. That doesn't invalidate your own enjoyment and if it does, that's entirely a you problem.

[Iscah]

Again, people are allowed to see issues in games, books, movies, etc. and continue to play, read or watch them. I don't remember any requirement that you have to worship something and see no wrong with it to still engage in things related to said something.

I swear it's like people take it as a personal attack when someone else sees flaws with something they enjoy. That doesn't invalidate your own enjoyment and if it does, that's entirely a you problem.

Yes, people are still allowed to read and play things that they don't enjoy, but at the same time, one specific person not enjoying the thing does not mean that the solution ought to be rewriting the thing to cater to the person who doesn't like it.

I don't see it as a personal attack if someone doesn't like a thing that I like. But simply "not liking" a thing is not the same as demanding the thing should be changed to cater to an entirely different flavour of personal taste, at the expense of its appeal to the people who are currently enjoying it.

If you didn't like Harry Potter and persevered with it and it came good in the end, that's great for you (I say that without sarcasm). But you presumably didn't write to JK Rowling saying Book 4 was dreadful and she needs to change the direction of the story to save the series from oblivion. You (again presumably) just read Book 5 and liked it.

But what if you didn't? If you still didn't like Book 5 or 6 or 7, while a large number of other people remained fans, would you say that JK Rowling should have written it so it appeals to you better or just attribute it to your personal taste and move on to something else?

[Rulakir]

But you presumably didn't write to JK Rowling saying Book 4 was dreadful and she needs to change the direction of the story to save the series from oblivion.

There were a lot of cooks in the kitchen with EW, so I'm not convinced Ishikawa had the creative freedom or time to tell the story she wanted. Unfortunately, it seems like since the LL Q&A they're loathe to talk about it. If I recall correctly, Yoshi-P even said that she was so overburdened he had to be more involved in the writing process this time as well. We also know that she was comfortable going to 7.0 if not 8.0 before being told to cram the conclusion into 6.0 (no patches) and that she was doing rewrites almost up until the deadline.

I'd love to know if this was always her intention because, frankly, that'd probably be an instant unsub for me due to the issues I had with it. I've been giving her a lot of benefit of the doubt especially because, IMO, EW didn't feel like the spiritual successor to ShB. I would've assumed the MSQ had been handed over to another writer to go in a different direction if I didn't know better. Plus, covid seemed to have wrecked the writing process as well.

I'm usually all for authors staying true to their visions and not being swayed by outside influences, but that's in cases of there being one author telling the story they had always intended to tell and, like I said, I don't know that we got that with EW.

[Illmaeran]

I'm usually all for authors staying true to their visions and not being swayed by outside influences, but that's in cases of there being one author telling the story they had always intended to tell and, like I said, I don't know that we got that with EW.

Therein lies the difference between an independent author and a corporate copywriter. Let's not kid ourselves; even though Ishikawa's work is narrative in nature, she's got to tell a specific story as directed by her company boss within a given amount of time. In this case, the story outline she was allowed to "fill in the details" for (as above). She may have had a fair amount of creative license within those constraints, but she didn't have anywhere close to full creative control from the get-go. As much as I liked the overall EW story, it felt rushed in all aspects; pacing and lack of time to really polish the narrative before "going to print", etc.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they crammed everything into EW because partway through writing/development the board decided to fund the game for another ten years and Yoshida decided they needed that time to tell the next story with something of a break in-between to cleanse our palates, so to speak.

Even so, I'm glad EW happened how it did; I'm more than ready to move on from the Scions/Hydaelyn v. Zodiark saga. Continuing it for another expansion or two would have been too much for me.

[LianaThorne]

Yes, people are still allowed to read and play things that they don't enjoy, but at the same time, one specific person not enjoying the thing does not mean that the solution ought to be rewriting the thing to cater to the person who doesn't like it.

I don't see it as a personal attack if someone doesn't like a thing that I like. But simply "not liking" a thing is not the same as demanding the thing should be changed to cater to an entirely different flavour of personal taste, at the expense of its appeal to the people who are currently enjoying it.

If you didn't like Harry Potter and persevered with it and it came good in the end, that's great for you (I say that without sarcasm). But you presumably didn't write to JK Rowling saying Book 4 was dreadful and she needs to change the direction of the story to save the series from oblivion. You (again presumably) just read Book 5 and liked it.

But what if you didn't? If you still didn't like Book 5 or 6 or 7, while a large number of other people remained fans, would you say that JK Rowling should have written it so it appeals to you better or just attribute it to your personal taste and move on to something else?

I'd do both because why not?

[Alleo]

I swear it's like people take it as a personal attack when someone else sees flaws with something they enjoy. That doesn't invalidate your own enjoyment and if it does, that's entirely a you problem.

Complaints are fair. I have complained a lot on this forums over the years too. And if something releases that I dont like I will complain again. That of course does not mean someone has to stop playing the game. But if someone only complains for years, sees doom and gloom everywhere, discusses mostly in bad faith and throws personal insults on everyone that disagrees with them, then its imo time to move on.

Especially if every new expansion is their new breaking point and yet they will continue to not only stay subbed but also give SE even more money through cash shop and other stuff.

They can complain all they want. Create thread after thread. But at least stop insulting others that just have a different view. Maybe then it would be fun again to discuss things here on the forum...

[LianaThorne]

Complaints are fair. I have complained a lot on this forums over the years too. And if something releases that I dont like I will complain again. That of course does not mean someone has to stop playing the game. But if someone only complains for years, sees doom and gloom everywhere, discusses mostly in bad faith and throws personal insults on everyone that disagrees with them, then its imo time to move on.

Especially if every new expansion is their new breaking point and yet they will continue to not only stay subbed but also give SE even more money through cash shop and other stuff.

They can complain all they want. Create thread after thread. But at least stop insulting others that just have a different view. Maybe then it would be fun again to discuss things here on the forum...

The feeling is mutual. Those who dislike something involved with the game are constantly attacked by those that are in love with it and told to leave if we can't have the same opinions and dump praise on the devs 24/7. You'll see it all the time in Novice Network or shout chat during new expacs where people say "Oh I didn't really like this part." or "I'm not a huge fan of how long the story is." and it becomes a chorus of: "Well you're wrong and should feel bad about it and you have no taste."

How about everyone just worries about themselves and not let other peoples opinions about a video game bother them to the point they feel the need to lash out?

[Striker44]

I swear it's like people take it as a personal attack when someone else sees flaws with something they enjoy. That doesn't invalidate your own enjoyment and if it does, that's entirely a you problem.

As a few others have mentioned, it's all in the presentation. For example, in my opinion I think the glamour system could be improved. I would like to see things like the little check mark that shows up when you already have a minion or orchestrion roll that drops be expanded to include gear that you already have in your glamour dresser, along with increasing the size of the dresser itself as much as possible (when I tidied it up recently, I found some items I had put in there 2 or 3 times).

See how I phrased that? I'm noting it's only my opinion, and mentioning something I would like to see happen.

Compare that to certain other posters on here, who act as if they're the ultimate arbiters of anything right or wrong, and then demand that the dev team change things to suit them or else they must be horrible writers. That's not productive (or mature for that matter). Case in point posted shortly after your comment: "This story is not constructed as well as more recent single player titles, and if they want to regard FFXIV as one then they need to do better than what we're seeing now with this party." That's trolling at best and uselessly toxic at worst.

There's also this sense among some people that you can only enjoy something if it fits exactly the story you personally want. Case in point, I watched Season 4 of Stranger Things recently. After Season 3, there were a few things I wanted to see happen in Season 4. None of them did, in fact quite the opposite happened. Does that mean I hated Season 4 or felt the writers have somehow "lost their touch" or should be replaced? Nope! I still actually really enjoyed it, because I'm mature enough to put my own "wants" aside and appreciate the story for itself.

[Lauront]

As a few others have mentioned, it's all in the presentation. For example, in my opinion I think the glamour system could be improved. I would like to see things like the little check mark that shows up when you already have a minion or orchestrion roll that drops be expanded to include gear that you already have in your glamour dresser, along with increasing the size of the dresser itself as much as possible (when I tidied it up recently, I found some items I had put in there 2 or 3 times).

See how I phrased that? I'm noting it's only my opinion, and mentioning something I would like to see happen.

At a certain point it should be obvious to anyone reading that you're articulating an opinion - what else is it going to be? An opinion can be based on various things, which can alter how factual etc. it is, but it's still implicit in the way the world works that it's just that. If you did not put the "in my opinion" there, it will be filled in for you. Why is the above at all necessary?

Compare that to certain other posters on here, who act as if they're the ultimate arbiters of anything right or wrong, and then demand that the dev team change things to suit them or else they must be horrible writers. That's not productive (or mature for that matter). Case in point posted shortly after your comment: "This story is not constructed as well as more recent single player titles, and if they want to regard FFXIV as one then they need to do better than what we're seeing now with this party." That's trolling at best and uselessly toxic at worst.

Sorry - how is the specific statement above "trolling" or "uselessly toxic"? Where's your" IMO" in the above? Are you trying to dismiss the idea that you can approach a story through the framework of principles of good writing? I am not a writer myself but you seem to be trying to argue that there are no standards or principles to it, which is patently false.

None of us can demand that the writers do anything. We have no power over them other than our subs. This poster put it well:

Responding to a creative work isn't pressure. It's not like I'm demanding that they change the story with some ME3-ending style petition. They can hear my response to it and do whatever they want.

That said, all creator/fan relationships go both ways to some extent, and it's because the scenario team has expressed that they always strive to please people who love the story and not leave anyone feeling burned or left behind in the past that I'm posting to begin with. If this was a Blizzard situation where they obviously didn't give a hoot, I wouldn't.

Some further good posts here:

I remember these arguments being used in defense of the WoW and GoT writers, and we all know how that ended.

Like, it's baffling to me that someone can even make a statement like this unironically. Obviously writers shouldn't uncritically capitulate to any negative feedback, and should also consider positive responses to their work. But I can't think of an example where refusing to engage with it at all hasn't ended in a complete mess. Like, if we take this line of thinking to its logical conclusion, there's no such thing as bad media at all; only creators and haters determined to tear them down. Anyone can see that isn't true, and that writers who become convinced of their infallibility start putting out markedly more messy, self-aggrandizing stuff.

Though if anything, the FFXIV writing team has the opposite problem - Yoshi-P has literally gone on the record in saying that the goal of the story is to make as much of the player base happy as possible, and you can the results of that, for good or ill, all over the place. Beloved characters and plot beats get constant spotlighting and expansion, while controversial ones - like Lyse - drop off the map.

Well, implicitly, people are posting and keeping the conversation going here in the hope that the writing team will see it and react in some way - Yoshi-P has talked in multiple interviews about how they try and write a story that won't leave people feeling weird and that they do read feedback, after all. Even if the overall thrust doesn't change, which is fine, it wouldn't be the first time they've expanded on something or shifted the framing for that reason. They discussed how the positive feedback towards Emet influenced his depiction in Endwalker just recently, for example, and he just said the other day that there are going to be several articles by the team discussing people's interpretations of the story, which I don't think has ever happened before in such explicit terms.

While I think it's normally be a bit tacky to expect a writer or team of writers to shift direction based on ones opinion, this is an MMO, which cultivates a constant financial and emotional investment in a way many other mediums don't. So I don't think it's wrong for people to put their feelings of dissonance with the narrative out there.

Of course, it's also possible something is already planned that will solve a lot of these issues and has been since the start, and we'll all look like a bunch of over-reacting dorks in a few months. But that's just how it goes.

Quite frankly, you constantly spitting out terms like "toxic" or "troll" in response to a broad variety of feedback is something I'd consider far more in the region of toxic/trollish behaviour. For instance:

Honestly, just go to YT instead of the toxic cesspool that is the forums. Instead of the same dozen or so people here who will complain about anything, you'll find hundreds of people absolutely loving the game, the story, the music, et al.. FFXIV is an awesome game, and the overwhelming majority of its players know that. They just don't post here on these forums.

You forgot to stick an "in my opinion" in there by the way.

[Striker44]

At a certain point it should be obvious to anyone reading that you're articulating an opinion - what else is it going to be? An opinion can be based on various things, which can alter how factual etc. it is, but it's still implicit in the way the world works that it's just that. If you did not put the "in my opinion" there, it will be filled in for you. Why is the above at all necessary?

It's not about the "obviousness" - it's about the maturity and tone of what you're saying. There's a clear difference in tone when you acknowledge something is your opinion and express a desire versus declaring you are right and making a demand.

Sorry - how is the specific statement above "trolling" or "uselessly toxic"? Where's the "IMO" there? Are you trying to dismiss the idea that you can approach a story through the framework of principles of good writing? I am not a writer myself but you seem to be trying to argue that there are no standards to it, which is patently false.

It simply declares "the story is bad right now because I say so, and this game will fail if the writers don't change everything they're doing to suit me." That is either trolling or just plain toxic, exactly like I said

None of us can demand that the writers do anything.

And yet, that's exactly what certain people here do on the daily...

Quite frankly, you constantly spitting out terms like "toxic" or "troll" in response to a broad variety of feedback is something I'd consider far more in the region of toxic/trollish behaviour.

A classic non-defense when you know you have nothing. Sad. Also, I never said there weren't any "good posts" - in fact quite the opposite, I specifically pointed out entire threads of constructive critiques that stayed respectfully. Finding a random post or two to quote doesn't "prove" anything other than what I had just said...

You forgot to stick an "in my opinion" in there by the way.

Because that actually isn't an opinion. If you go to YT as I suggested and look at those videos, you will in fact see hundreds of different people posting about how much they're enjoying the game, and those will in fact be the overwhelming majority of the comments. And if you peruse these pages here, you will in fact see the same small group of people posting repeatedly in this topic and others. We reach an impasse when it seems there is a lack of knowledge over what an opinion actually is.