Ardbert's Party vs the Scions Analysis

[CrownySuccubus]

I do not believe that trying to compete in this thread regarding who had the worse time during Covid or other similarly harrowing situations is a productive direction for this discussion. The simple fact of the matter is that in this story that spoke at length about the ordeals one needs to pass to grow resilient enough to overcome despair, the Scions are quite privileged and suffered little to no losses when compared to Ardbert's group and many of the game's side characters.

In the context of the story and setting real life aside, the message falls flat in the way that it is delivered. Again, look back to Lamitt. She sacrificed everything for the greater good and was still shunned by her own people for it. Alphinaud in comparison had no such consequences for his "rebellion" of sorts because his mother was there every step of the way supporting him and his father eventually relented as well. This may be good for "feels" but it really isn't the kind of resolution I was expecting, as his father had the capacity to be a far more compelling antagonistic figure.

You can't make the argument "competing over who has it worse isn't productive" and then write an entire essay about how the Scions haven't suffered enough. If suffering isn't a competition, then that goes all around. In this context, I can feel the same sympathy for the Scions, who try to help people in need, as a social or medical worker. People IRL can and do develop PTSD and other psychological traumas from being exposed to suffering, underprivileged and dying people. Even if those people themselves come from wealthy or privileged lifestyles and get to go home to warm meals, a loving family, and a comfortable bed, I would find it disrespectful and diminishing to say that the pain they feel from that secondhand exposure means nothing. A nurse that watches her patient slowly die in front of her with no way to stop it, in my opinion, doesn't get to be talked-down-to about suffering, no matter how big her bank account is. That's to say nothing of the fact that the Scions do put their lives at risk on an almost constant basis -- it's easy to forget because this is fiction and all, but near-death experiences aren't exactly something a human being can experience even once in a lifetime and just walk away from unaffected.

In terms of storytelling, do I think Endwalker could have handled its subject matter of suffering and resilience with more tact and nuance? Absolutely. But do I think "the Scions don't suffer enough" is one of the problems? Not really....buuuuut, I don't really fault that criticism either when "You don't suffer enough" was literally the criticism being levied at the game's "fallen precursor" civilization.

[Striker44]

Up until recently, I would have gladly recommended FFXIV to adults my age but after Endwalker I struggle to find a good reason to do so, because the game increasingly appears to disregard the age of its playerbase from both a gameplay and story perspective by continually wearing down both aspects.

Aside from the obvious risks of trying to generalize to an entire imagined "age" based on one's own personal thoughts, I would say the complete opposite. There are plenty of media available to adults where a lot of "bad" things happen which aren't appropriate for younger audiences (the entire Game of Thrones saga comes right to mind). There's also plenty of "bad" stuff that happens in FFXIV, just not final death to main Scion characters recently. I feel the current approach for FFXIV is fine for the "age" you're describing, and I find EW honestly a fantastic expansion that it makes me encourage others to try it out even more.

Same with gameplay. If your "target" audience is established adults and maybe middle-age adults, you're talking either mainly people with full-time careers and families, or those whose dexterity and reaction times may be starting to slow. The gameplay design where classes keep many general things the same while including smaller differences to separate them meshes perfectly with this. I would see a design approach with each class being completely unique and as complex as possible most appropriate for younger audiences than come anywhere close to what forms FFXIV's main population.

[EaraGrace]

The simple fact of the matter is that in this story that spoke at length about the ordeals one needs to pass to grow resilient enough to overcome despair, the Scions are quite privileged and suffered little to no losses when compared to Ardbert's group and many of the game's side characters.

I just want to point out that describing the Scions as “privileged” is nothing but hyperbole . By deliberately ignoring the Scions struggles, you skew the overall narrative and just about anyone who likes the Scions will immediately reject your point as a result. You aren’t convincing anyone with this argument.

In the context of the story and setting real life aside, the message falls flat in the way that it is delivered. Again, look back to Lamitt. She sacrificed everything for the greater good and was still shunned by her own people for it. Alphinaud in comparison had no such consequences for his "rebellion" of sorts because his mother was there every step of the way supporting him and his father eventually relented as well.

Only after being publicly disowned. And his mother support was their, yes, but that certainly didn’t help him in Ishgard, as he grappled with the guilt of creating the Crystal Braves and being blamed for murdering the Sultana.

This may be good for "feels" but it really isn't the kind of resolution I was expecting, as his father had the capacity to be a far more compelling antagonistic figure. If I have to ask myself whose story I am more interested in following, hers or his, I'm choosing Lamitt's. Another Final Fantasy character who was quite the mama's boy was Hope from FFXIII - and the loss of his mother coupled with his estranged relationship with his father at the very least gave him a more thrilling character arc that incorporated revenge and the need to grow stronger in a more effective manner than Alphinaud's writing.

This is subjective through and through.

I will never understand the aversion some players seem to have for higher tension and stakes in the main story.

I don’t think people are averse to changes, just not the ones you’re advocating for.

If you want a game where nothing bad happens, there are plenty of other options to choose from outside the Final Fantasy series. Final Fantasy games should provide some level of emotional ups and downs that are grounded by permanent consequences instead of handwaving away problems for the main party like we saw happen in Endwalker.

FF games handwave consequences all the time though! It’s practically a series staple. Looks at FFIV.

[Theodric]

It's worth noting that FFIV was released before some of us were even born. Personally I'm inclined to look to the more 'recent' entries in the franchise. Besides, I'm not sure how the existence of FFIV negates the many other Final Fantasy titles with dire consequences for the world as a whole and the members of the main cast.

Though I imagine, as always, those who consider the Scions to be their comfort characters will insist on shielding them from any and all meaningful stakes whilst being perfectly fine with everything else in the setting being tormented and eliminated in their stead.

[aveyond-dreams]

FFIV is the game where a father sacrificed his life in the name of revenge in casting Meteor. FFIV is where the main character was directly responsible for the death of another main character's parent. FFIV also did not annul the sacrifices made by the main cast members in as little time as this game did, with some only being able to be brought back into action in the penultimate moments of the game. It did not demand nearly as much in the way of suspension of disbelief as Endwalker did, with some characters like Rydia only making an appearance in a shocking manner aged up to adulthood in the middle of a battle that was practically lost after her fate was left unknown. Unless one has prior knowledge of the game, it is much harder to predict the fates of these characters or if/when they will return.

This doesn't hold for FFXIV however, and especially not for Ultima Thule.

Many could see that the sacrifices made in Ultima Thule would be annulled over the span of less than 30 minutes, and many could also see ahead with the 5 minute delay between Y'shtola's Shadowbringers forbidden magic moment and her immediate revival by Emet-Selch. The lack of commitment to these consequences for even an hour is a concerning trend that must be re-assessed. Given the age of this playerbase it is important to factor in their perception of these events, especially when games intended for younger audiences like the Mana series are more consistent in sticking to the consequences of the choices characters make in the story. The emotional impact of these moments has been compromised and greater care should be taken moving forward when writing sequences where characters must make sacrifices.

[DPZ2]

Given the age of this playerbase it is important to factor in their perception of these events, especially when games intended for younger audiences like the Mana series are more consistent in sticking to the consequences of the choices characters make in the story

How did you determine the 'age' of the player base for this game? Its ESRB rating is "Teen", yes. That's the lowest common denominator for this game ... a parent might allow a 13 year old to purchase and play the game.

But.

The game has an ongoing subscription fee. Parents are supposed to decide whether the game is appropriate for their children. An ESRB rating of "Teen", along with the caveat "Language, Mild Blood, Sexual Themes, Use of Alcohol, Violence" indicates that maybe, just maybe, they have oriented the game to those who are slightly older than 15 or 16. I personally knew plenty of parents who don't even allow T rated games to be played at home because of the wide variance in themes.

In reality, I know of no specific teenagers on YouTube or Twitch who play the game. (Point them out to me and I'll give them a look-see). Even a reasoned argument in these forums requires a player of a certain age and education. If I were to guess, the 'age' of the player base is closer to 35 than to 13. A smaller group of teenagers, a larger group of 20-40 year olds, a smaller group of 40-70 year olds. What do I base my speculations on? Money. The game is not free [technically, it's free-with-restrictions-through-level-60, but...]. It has a subscription cost, a cost to purchase the game itself post-Heavensward, a cost to purchase additional items for the Mog Store, etc.

[Graeham]

The player of the video game is only the people of the young age. So is important to make the story they can like so it can be recommended to they friends at the school. This is why the story about the Ascian is better writing because they want to make the world without the consequence and only the bliss. To live in the world with the grown person consequence is bad. Scion should be the one to face the consequence not the Ascian.

[Theodric]

FFIV is the game where a father sacrificed his life in the name of revenge in casting Meteor. FFIV is where the main character was directly responsible for the death of another main character's parent. FFIV also did not annul the sacrifices made by the main cast members in as little time as this game did, with some only being able to be brought back into action in the penultimate moments of the game. It did not demand nearly as much in the way of suspension of disbelief as Endwalker did, with some characters like Rydia only making an appearance in a shocking manner aged up to adulthood in the middle of a battle that was practically lost after her fate was left unknown. Unless one has prior knowledge of the game, it is much harder to predict the fates of these characters or if/when they will return.

This doesn't hold for FFXIV however, and especially not for Ultima Thule.

Many could see that the sacrifices made in Ultima Thule would be annulled over the span of less than 30 minutes, and many could also see ahead with the 5 minute delay between Y'shtola's Shadowbringers forbidden magic moment and her immediate revival by Emet-Selch. The lack of commitment to these consequences for even an hour is a concerning trend that must be re-assessed. Given the age of this playerbase it is important to factor in their perception of these events, especially when games intended for younger audiences like the Mana series are more consistent in sticking to the consequences of the choices characters make in the story. The emotional impact of these moments has been compromised and greater care should be taken moving forward when writing sequences where characters must make sacrifices.

Another good thing about FFIV is that the main character was forced to atone for supporting a misguided cause. I think it would be pretty interesting to see the protagonists in this game go through such an ordeal - though the most obvious route to having that play out was, unfortunately, deliberately 'subverted' during Endwalker.

Self proclaimed heroes who somehow always end up on the winning side don't really resonate much with me. Real heroes are imperfect - they might mean well but they're only human and make mistakes or back the wrong horse in a race. Anything remotely similar to the idea of things blowing up in the faces of the Scions doesn't even affect them so much as third party characters - as we saw with Alphinaud's 'plight' in Garlemald.

Ilberd was probably the closest this game will ever get to it, I suppose. He was a great antagonist. Though as of the end of Heavensward the game's narrative seemed to move away from intrigue in favour of 'feels' instead.

[CrownySuccubus]

Self proclaimed heroes who somehow always end up on the winning side don't really resonate much with me. Real heroes are imperfect

I don't particularly mind imperfect heroes, since they're the most relatable. But on the other side of the coin, I also dislike when an imperfect hero stays imperfect...especially if it's imperfect in the same way. That, in particular, is why I couldn't get behind the earlier argument of Thancred continuing to have his womanizing vices; if a character trait is deemed an impediment, then it easily becomes aggravating when said impediment remains throughout the narrative.

For instance, this is one of the reasons it rings hollow on the 50th occasion that Batman decides he needs to start trusting his adopted family and, in turn stop abusing their own trust. Because later on, some new story starts and he does the same thing again, learns the exact same lesson again, and makes the same promise again. Ad infinitum.

[SannaR]

FFIV is the game where a father sacrificed his life in the name of revenge in casting Meteor. FFIV is where the main character was directly responsible for the death of another main character's parent. FFIV also did not annul the sacrifices made by the main cast members in as little time as this game did, with some only being able to be brought back into action in the penultimate moments of the game. It did not demand nearly as much in the way of suspension of disbelief as Endwalker did, with some characters like Rydia only making an appearance in a shocking manner aged up to adulthood in the middle of a battle that was practically lost after her fate was left unknown. Unless one has prior knowledge of the game, it is much harder to predict the fates of these characters or if/when they will return.

This doesn't hold for FFXIV however, and especially not for Ultima Thule.

Many could see that the sacrifices made in Ultima Thule would be annulled over the span of less than 30 minutes, and many could also see ahead with the 5 minute delay between Y'shtola's Shadowbringers forbidden magic moment and her immediate revival by Emet-Selch. The lack of commitment to these consequences for even an hour is a concerning trend that must be re-assessed. Given the age of this playerbase it is important to factor in their perception of these events, especially when games intended for younger audiences like the Mana series are more consistent in sticking to the consequences of the choices characters make in the story. The emotional impact of these moments has been compromised and greater care should be taken moving forward when writing sequences where characters must make sacrifices.

So Cid jumping off an airship hovering above a mountain top that grew a hole to technically the middle of the planet. Blowing himself up and somehow surviving the rest of the falls and explosion. Or Yang who not only survived a ship wreck but also an explosion at the top of a giant tower. Later getting whacked with a frying pan while already unconscious don't demand more of a suspension of disbelief than things that have happened in XIV? Or that Palom and Parom's Elder somehow found something to cure them of having petrified themselves? Or that in order to actually do damage to the final boss one has to throw a spoon at them?

Ultama Thule we knew even before going there that we were carrying a maguffin. Even told to use it if we needed to. Only to later get told to not use it because it wasn't safe yet to do so.