Volcanic Heart is a bad map

[Apeman]

Dude, can you please stop being so unnecessarily reductive? You're acting really stupid right now, but you and I both know you're not stupid. Just because a portion of a map might favor one style or role over another, doesn't mean the entire map does. I believe I wrote an entire post explaining this to you. Could you please go back and re-read that post instead of wasting everyone's time with comments like these?



Filler DPS is just that - filler. BRD's primary damage comes from aligning their burst with a triple Empyrean, typically inside a silence so they can't heal immediately. And you'll have used Repelling Shot to gain necessary distance and lock down your target if you aren't already at range before you begin.

Like with so many other complaints and whines we see on these boards, this is just a PEBKAC issue. You're on Crystal - go talk to Drunkin Bonuts if you want to know how to be a good Bard. They aren't the only good Bard I've seen, but I've played dozens and dozens of games with and against them and I've never, ever seen them struggle to deal with melee... nor do they dodge VH or swap classes on VH.

I said the map sucks for ranged and you admit their are parts of the map that are "unfavorable" to range. Is there some section of this map that instead favors the ranged? No. Plus the initial battle will mostly take place in the the center area which is most unfavorable to range. So if a map has areas that are not favorable for range and no areas where they have the advantage then the map as a whole is unfavorable to range. I don't know how i can spell this out any clearer.

[Apeman]

BRD damage comes from combining their apex arrow with empyrean and finishing them off with pitch perfect during the silence window. Their main attack is just filler to refill empyrean stacks.

I know i get that. That's your burst window. But once that is spent you are relying on powerful shot while your abilities recharge. Acting like a 33% loss in damage during the time it takes for these to recharge isn't a big deal is just asinine especially when every post you make in the pvp forums comes at it from the idea of playing jobs at peak performance.

[Ransu]

I know i get that. That's your burst window. But once that is spent you are relying on powerful shot while your abilities recharge. Acting like a 33% loss in damage during the time it takes for these to recharge isn't a big deal is just asinine especially when every post you make in the pvp forums comes at it from the idea of playing jobs at peak performance.

I wouldn't say its not a big deal. Its certainly annoying and a feature I wish that would go away, but at the same time it is a filler attack so *shrug*. I guess they felt to design it that way because of the LB....but more than half the time the matches are over before BRD even gets 1 LB so again *shrug* lmao.

[Gserpent]

I said the map sucks for ranged and you admit their are parts of the map that are "unfavorable" to range. Is there some section of this map that instead favors the ranged? No. Plus the initial battle will mostly take place in the the center area which is most unfavorable to range. So if a map has areas that are not favorable for range and no areas where they have the advantage then the map as a whole is unfavorable to range. I don't know how i can spell this out any clearer.

Your interpretation of this is wrong - likely due to your inexperience, which has lead you to draw false conclusions. And your ego apparently can't tolerate it when you're being corrected, so here we are. The initial battle doesn't really matter that much. The most important fights are going to take place around the checkpoints and along the goal line, both areas where ranged operate just fine. Ranged also work fine in mid, but you can't expect to just sit back and attack at max range with no issues like on Palaistra or Cloud Nine - you have to learn to deal with people trying to LOS you, and learn how to use corners to your advantage.

By your own admission, you don't play very much CC/ranked. So why are you trying to act like an authority here?

[Corbeau]

Your interpretation of this is wrong - likely due to your inexperience, which has lead you to draw false conclusions. And your ego apparently can't tolerate it when you're being corrected, so here we are. The initial battle doesn't really matter that much. The most important fights are going to take place around the checkpoints and along the goal line, both areas where ranged operate just fine. Ranged also work fine in mid, but you can't expect to just sit back and attack at max range with no issues like on Palaistra or Cloud Nine - you have to learn to deal with people trying to LOS you, and learn how to use corners to your advantage.

By your own admission, you don't play very much CC/ranked. So why are you trying to act like an authority here?

And you haven't even touched Bard in CC, much less done the climb with it.

[Apeman]

Your interpretation of this is wrong - likely due to your inexperience, which has lead you to draw false conclusions. And your ego apparently can't tolerate it when you're being corrected, so here we are. The initial battle doesn't really matter that much. The most important fights are going to take place around the checkpoints and along the goal line, both areas where ranged operate just fine. Ranged also work fine in mid, but you can't expect to just sit back and attack at max range with no issues like on Palaistra or Cloud Nine - you have to learn to deal with people trying to LOS you, and learn how to use corners to your advantage.

By your own admission, you don't play very much CC/ranked. So why are you trying to act like an authority here?

Thank you once again for proving my point by agreeing with what i said. Claiming my ego is the issue here reaches levels of irony once thought unimaginable to common men. Also the condescending personal attacks are commonly used by people in a debate when they realize they have lost the arguement on its factual basis and are then forced to rely on insults and insults to lower the opponents credibility. Is that what's happening here, i honestly cant's say for sure but is good food for thought i guess.

[Gserpent]

And you haven't even touched Bard in CC, much less done the climb with it.

Yup, but I've played and talked with a lot of bards, some of whom are quite good at the game. I understand the class. You *must* understand all of the classes if you want to win a lot of games - how else are you going to know how to play against a class? You need to know how the class's burst cycle works, things that they are good at doing, things they are poor at doing, and how to mitigate their strengths while capitalizing on their weaknesses.

But what Apeman's problem is, isn't even specific to Bard. He literally does not know how to handle corner-huggers as a ranged player - that's something that marks him as a relative newbie to the role, because people *are* going to try to LOS you when you are a ranged or caster, and you need to know how to deal with that. He would not have any less of an issue dealing with this as MCH or DNC, or as any caster or healer, because the problem he's having is one of a fundamental lack of gameplay basics. It's something that you learn with experience and practice, but by his own admission he hasn't played that many CC games (or at least not ranked.) So how do you learn to improve without playing? You can dodge Volcanic Heart all you'd like, but that's just admitting defeat and denying yourself the opportunity to learn and improve. I play healers, who all have cast times on their filler DPS and can't move while casting... yet I don't have issues dealing with people corner-hugging against me.

This attitude of, "you haven't played it so you don't know it," is nonsense. If that's all you have, if that's the only rebuttal you can come up with, you have nothing. Prove my arguments wrong. Record your games, show us you fighting against melees in VH and show us how you make no mistakes and play flawlessly and still lose because "it's not fair/the map favors melee."

But you and I both know you're not going to rise to that challenge. Because you know we'll be able to identify multiple flaws in your play, which are the *actual* reason you struggle.

[Apeman]

Yup, but I've played and talked with a lot of bards, some of whom are quite good at the game. I understand the class. You *must* understand all of the classes if you want to win a lot of games - how else are you going to know how to play against a class? You need to know how the class's burst cycle works, things that they are good at doing, things they are poor at doing, and how to mitigate their strengths while capitalizing on their weaknesses.

But what Apeman's problem is, isn't even specific to Bard. He literally does not know how to handle corner-huggers as a ranged player - that's something that marks him as a relative newbie to the role, because people *are* going to try to LOS you when you are a ranged or caster, and you need to know how to deal with that. He would not have any less of an issue dealing with this as MCH or DNC, or as any caster or healer, because the problem he's having is one of a fundamental lack of gameplay basics. It's something that you learn with experience and practice, but by his own admission he hasn't played that many CC games (or at least not ranked.) So how do you learn to improve without playing? You can dodge Volcanic Heart all you'd like, but that's just admitting defeat and denying yourself the opportunity to learn and improve. I play healers, who all have cast times on their filler DPS and can't move while casting... yet I don't have issues dealing with people corner-hugging against me.

But you and I both know you're not going to rise to that challenge. Because you know we'll be able to identify multiple flaws in your play, which are the *actual* reason you struggle.

i love how you are making assumptions on my play based on no evidence of the matter other then your own conclusions based on my forum posts. All because i stated this map sucks for ranged (which you then confirmed) i am now a "newbie, who can't handle corner huggers as a ranged player." I have 88 CC wins, 5 from casual and 83 in ranked out of how many matches i don't know. If there is a way to know that info i am not currently aware of it as the achievement log also counts feast/fold encounters with your CC fights. I am also rank platinum 2 with one star. Am i good? Am i bad? I don't know. My honest guess is i am somewhere slightly above average. I have never claimed to be the best at pvp but i am far from the stupid, newbie trash that you seem to assume i am. I have played enough matches to make my own opinions on how certain maps function. If you disagree that the map as a whole is fine then that is your opinion but you have stated multiple times the map has areas where melee are favored over range therefore concluding that my initial statement was valid.

[Corbeau]

[words]

The experience of playing against something is not at all the same as piloting it yourself. I played most of the cast, settled on Bard for bronze to crystal, and then went back to playing variety after getting there. I say that you do not have the full picture of how Bard functions.

It's easy to feel when you get silenced and killed by an opposing Bard, but that's only one part of Bard's kit - and a Machinist will erase someone far more easily. No, Bard's unique advantages run deeper, are far less visible, and are very attritional. One of those unique quirks is that it's filler at range is much more powerful than that of other classes. Filler casts not only hit harder, wearing down the enemy over time, they also generates your burst damage charges - and you lose all of that value every time you get a cast canceled (casts that slow you down, making it even harder to maintain LoS). It doesn't help that the camera becomes your foe on VH, too. You almost never notice the camera issues on VH as a melee, but when you need to create space and survey the field from a distance it becomes a miserable experience having your camera constantly squashed by the walls. All which is why Bard suffers particularly badly in VH. No match is ever unwinnable in CC, there are too many variables at play, but playing Bard on VH is putting a tangible extra weight on the scales against you. Why bring a partially functional character when you could bring an entirely functional one?

(For the sake of completion, the other unique advantages Bard brings are Paen's amazing cleanse and the invisible but powerful team damage buffs, which also shine particularly bright when playing an attritional strategy.)

[Gserpent]

The experience of playing against something is not at all the same as piloting it yourself. I played most of the cast, settled on Bard for bronze to crystal, and then went back to playing variety after getting there. I say that you do not have the full picture of how Bard functions.

Based on what? Literally everything you said after this point is stuff I already know. Like I said: I *know* Bard. I know every single class. I *have* to, if I want to win games reliably. I agree with the camera fuckery, but that happens to everyone with knockbacks involved. The camera is so generally shit (not just on VH but I'll agree it presents more opportunities for the camera to get caught on things) that pushing people into corners is actually a completely viable strategy because it makes it almost impossible to see anything but their own character's nether regions. It's definitely something they ought to look into addressing, although I think that's just a general issue with how the camera actually functions in the game.

It's funny you talk about attrition - I main Scholar. Suffice to say, I am very, *very* familiar with the idea of attrition and fudging numbers to be in your team's favor. I am also familiar with the idea of needing to move around a lot on a class with few to no mobility tools, and as a class that generally does not want to be close to their targets.

Like I said: I *know* Bard. And Bard is not somehow unable to compete on Volcanic Heart. LOS can be used both ways. As someone a page or two ago mentioned, and was completely ignored (probably because the information they were dispensing wasn't favorable to the OMG VH SUX narrative people like Apeman are trying to push), you can *easily* use LOS to force melee to overextend in order to attack you.

LOS doesn't disfavor ranged or melee. Both can make effective and reliable use of it. Losing 1-2k damage per GCD on your filler for a couple GCDs is not going to somehow tank your performance and make you useless.

But I don't think you need to be told that, do you?