[Petition] Have Naoki Yoshida Play Healer and take off the DPS Gloves for a year.

[Renathras]

A few additions to that:

Thunder - Same as Aero 2, nada.

Correctt me if I'm wrong, but didn't we (I think you were there) determine Thunder was removed as a cross-class action in like 2.1? Considering I clearly said "from SB to ShB/EW", an ability that was only in the game for ~6 months, if that, from 2.0 to 2.1 or MAYbe 2.2, doesn't apply.

Virus - Nada

Given this was a mitigation (that only worked on half the things), Temperance is this same thing.

Eye for an Eye - Technically Lilybell achieves a similar net result I guess?

Honestly, this one I would give you, but yeah, Lilybell.

Fluid Aura - Nada

Fluid Aura was never part of WHM's general rotation (like Repose) because of the knockback. It was used almost exclusively in solo content and has been more or less superseded by Assize. It was also an oGCD, which people often leave out of these discussions. I honestly can't think of the last time Fluid Aura was relevant other than in low level dungeons too punt a runner enemy back to the Tank.

For better or worse, I'd also add mere resource management to that list as well. ARR and HW had to keep a tight ship on MP usage. Now it only becomes a true issue if you're having to hardcast back to back raises or can't stay alive.

This one I'll grant you. It's why things like Freecure or having Cure 1 NOT upgrade into Cure 2 (as well as the entire existence of Physic on SCH) even make sense in the first place. Because they come from an era where MP efficiency MATTERED. Shroud of Saints was a button you sat on to use when needed for either MP, agro dump, or both. Now it's a button we just press on CD that could be removed from the game and the MP gain normalized to our base restoration and nothing of value would be lost. (Being able to get that bump after being Raised sounds nice on paper, but if we're keeping it on CD all the time anyway, that doesn't work in practice unless we just have a happy coincidence of dying right before it comes off CD again)

Almost forgot! WHM even used to do dungeon CC very early on in ARR Dungeons. That was something I miss and IMHO it's something that could be revisited to spice up the dungeon formula.

To be fair, CC in dungeons hasn't realistically existed in FFXIV for a looooooong time, and barely ever did. And other Jobs were often better at it than WHM's anyway. This is an MMO-wide thing (I remember people complaining when CC wasn't needed in WoW back in...Wrath? The early 201Xs?), and at this point, telling people NOT to do wall-to-wall pulls in FFXIV is a lost cause. People will openly condemn any tanks that are only pulling one pack at a time as lazy, bads, and "wasting everyone's time", so can you imagine FFXIV dungeons where we had to actually maintain CC on enemies for 30-60+ seconds and that we were...actually fighting trash for 30-60+ seconds to begin with?

PotD and maybe Criterion Dungeons, we'll see, but if this was introduced to standard dungeons again, the QQ would be off the charts.

Please be mindful of others. A lot of people on the forums don't agree with his arguments, however this doesn't mean his point is not valid. He has made multiple valid points, that were demeaningly dismissed with "Oh, look Sylphie"

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Given your demeanor, I'd like to ask: Did you see any of my points as invalid? Some may be oversimplifications (though I am trying to avoid those). Not attacking, just curious for analysis from an (unbiased?) third party.

I've been reading this thread for a bit, and I just want to mention something that seemingly no one has mentioned: Extremes and savage have been cleared with 1 healer basically doing nothing but healing

Taking this into account, that means that both types of content can be cleared by both healers only outputting half the damage that they do now, so the argument that any changes would make it so the healers that are accustomed to the current gameplay would become unable to clear content is false. The only time this would be true would be during early week savage clears or ultimates, but if said healer is tackling those challenges, it would be assumed that they would adapt to any new gameplay changes and perform as optimally as they can.

This may not be quite right. From overall perceptions, DSR doesn't have super high damage, it just has some spikes of it and very difficult MECHANICS that if failed lead to wipes. Healing in FFXIV often can require (at min ilevel at-level gear) two healers because the damage spikes are high enough one may not be able to do it. Take things like ZodEx's 9 hit pre-enrage stack mechanic. This is because the healing requires a lot of healing, though only over a VERY short period. One healer alone might not be able to manage this (I'm not sure if any could or couldn't in min ilevel, I'm just using this as an illustrative example), but then until the next mechanic that requires a lot of healing, there's no healing to do.

That is, suppose the party members have ~50k health and an attack does 100k health over 5 seconds. You'd need two healers to be able to heal people faster than that attack kills them, as one healer alone wouldn't have enough time to heal that much damage given they only have 2 GCDs and MAYBE 3 oGCD weaves in a 5 second window. So you need two healers...and then...0 healers for the next 30 seconds until the next attack comes in.

If you look at the solo Ultimate, and any of the Savages that were done with one healer, they often have other party members with specific Jobs to help get around this. Jobs like PLD (Veil, Passage of Arms), WAR (Shake it Off), RDM (Magick Barrier) and so on. If you look at that solo Ultimate, the PLD cast Clemency something like 15-20 times, and the RDM cast Vercure over 30 - two things that would be unheard of in normal content and get people berated for "being bad" in any other context.

So it's not "half the healing" that they do now is needed. It's that it's 75% the healing of one healer (or 150% if solo healing) that needs to be done all at once. Using tons of mitigation and using other Jobs with healing mechanics (Clemency, Nascent Glint, Curing Waltz, Phoenix, Vercure) can give the party JUST enough healing to make it through the check, at which point the solo healer has 30 seconds to get them up to 100% health again, which is easy.

The main issue is the fight design in FFXIV is around having very high spikes of damage...but then no damage for a good chunk of time. Realistically it's 15-20 sec or so between most damage spikes. That's ample time to heal up just using Medica 1 casts. Or in some cases, natural healing. And because it's spaced with so much "dead time" between damage AND healers have so many oGCDs, they can handle it all with oGCDs without needing to cast actual GCD spells. Who needs Succor when you have Whispering Dawn, Fey Blessing, Indominability, Sacred Soil, and Seraph, even if we ignore Eos's natural Embrace casts? If you only see spikes of damage every 20 seconds, you will always have an oGCD up for that if you plan out your oGCD use well.

That would be much easier if he/she did not condescendingly quote others on this forum by quoting their posts as "drivel", or by being so angry when any issues regarding the game are questioned that he/she may not even read through a post.

You mean where I was trying to have a respectful conversation and you basically took everything I said and replied with "You're just bad at PvP"? Where you outright IGNORED everything I said (other than the factual statement that Seraph Strike is often a suicide button in Frontlines) so you could, while on some level basically agreeing with me, still slide in a cheap shot because...reasons?

What would you call that instead of drivel?

It certainly wasn't respectful on your part. And that post of yours WAS condescending.

It's possible you didn't intend it that way, but when you end your post with " It won't help you in PVP, the only way is to try something different and to see if that works better.", especially when I never said I had trouble DEALING DAMAGE in PvP, it comes across as pretty condescending and disrespectful.

"That would be much easier"? You didn't even TRY it in the first place...

I'll just point out that you seemed to be so quick to respond that you completely missed my references to AST in my post.

I mean, did you not actually read my post before you replied to it? Where I specifically mentioned I don't play AST and don't like playing AST? Or where I was specifically talking about WHM and going into WHM abilities? Where I noted SCH's healing outside of Seraph is rather weak and that SGE doesn't have any direct healing at all? I didn't "miss" your reference to AST, I was explicitly not talking about AST and made that clear.

[QUOTE]Understandable, you seemed to focus on some imagined[/QUOTE}

For one accusing others of condescension...

If you wonder why you keep having to repeat your arguments over and over and over and no one listens --- look up "drivel", that doesn't help.

Again: For one accusing others of condescension...

It was fine, but this is off-topic and I suspect your opinion on the rework will be exceedingly disagreeable.

That comment was in direct response to someone's post. So if it was off-topic, blame the person that brought it up to begin with. That said, no, it was not "fine".

Good thing it's an opinion I hold and not an actual game design decision, so I don't have to compromise on anything.

That's fine, but you aren't going to get any of what you want, then, like as not. If not getting what you want is what you want, carrying on as you are makes sense, I suppose.

I think you have too stringent an idea of "rotation" in your head. They've also never been a role with so few damaging spells, from the MMOs I've played.

I'm curious what MMO's you've played? There are several where healers have as few damage spells as modern FFXIV healers do. Or did during parts of their history. I had a discussion above about WoW Resto (healing) Druids, which at one time had only 2 damage spells (a direct damage, a DoT, and nothing else), and that even now in modern WoW have ARGUABLY about the same number as WHM, give or take 1-2. Holy Paladins (healers) at one time had ONE damage spell (Judgement; Hammer of Wrath if the target was below 20% health). Right now, I believe it has Crusader Strike (deals damage, generates 1 Holy Power), Judgement (of Light) (deals damage, allies that hit the target get a small tick of healing), Hammer of Wrath (on <20% health targets), Holy Shock (which is primarily used for healing the tank, but can technically be used for damage...but isn't in raids), Holy Prism (damages an enemy and heals nearby allies OR heals an ally and damages nearby enemies, have to talent for this one, I think), and Shield of the Righteous (deals damage and increases armor, but costs 3 Holy Power to use, so is only used if absolutely no healing is needed at the moment), and Light's Hammer (aoe damage and aoe healing, also a talent). Of those, ONLY Crusader Strike has no CD (technically Shield of the Righteous doesn't, but as it requires 3 Holy Power to use, it cannot be spammed). The others are all instance on various CDs, and so are more analogous to things like Assize. However, Crusader Strike also depletes a large amount of Mana, meaning its use has to be considered SOMEWHAT carefully, and you need the talent for it to reduce Holy Shock's CD or it drops on your priority list.

Note that several of these are talents competing with other things (Light's Hammer is competing with Bestow Faith, Holy Prism with Judgement of Light). I'm a bit iffy on the Covenant stuff, but it appears that you gain one CD ability that deals damage and buffs healing in some way.

In a practical sense, with optimal/recommended talents and build, current WoW Healing Paladin has one spam damage ability (Crusader Strike), one upkeep damage ability (Judgement (of Light)), one combo point spender damage ability that competes with its healing (Shield of the Righteous), a <20% execute ability (Hammer of Wrath), and one big CD (30 sec to 4 minutes, depending) Covenant ability. This is arguably on-par with FFXIV healers. Using WHM as an example, Crusader Strike is your Glare, Judgement is your Dia, Shield of the Righteous is your Misery, and your Covenant ability is Assize. Note the lack of something like Holy for AOE (other than some of the Covenant abilities or swapping one of the above for different talents).

And note this is current WoW. When I first started a Paladin back in Burning Crusade, healing Paladins had JUST Judgement. I THINK they had Exorcism for Undead/Demon enemies, but I believe Consecration (AOE damage field on a CD) and Hammer of Wrath (<20% execute on a shortish CD) were both Protection talents, if I recall correctly. By Wrath, Healadins had Holy Shock (when not using it for healing) to add to that list, and gained Crusader Strike in either Cataclysm or Mists (I forget which). Their Vanilla/BC damage kit was literally "apply seal, Judge" every 30 seconds, and watch autoattacks for the other 29 seconds unless casting a heal. Of which, they had only one, Holy Light. Vanilla WoW and early BC (before they made seals last 2 minutes and whenever it was they made them not consumed by Judgement) Paladin was quite possibly the simplest possible class design I've ever played in ANY game. Their damage kit consisted of AT MOST 3 buttons, and that's being generous, and their healing kit consisted of two (or maybe just one...); they were super efficient single target healers, so made great tank healers, and they had a slew of buffs to throw out to the raid, but dps kit (and healing kit) they did not.

So we now have Druid AND Paladin healing in WoW where their damage kits are on par with FFXIV's. The difference is (a) that they have more interaction between their equally shallow pool of damage abilities, (b) that their CDs are shorter (in most cases) allowing more frequent use, (c) that oGCDs don't exist in WoW, so GCDs must be spent healing, breaking up the otherwise identical Glarespam, and (d) that healing is actually more consistent and sustained (and can't be dealt with with powerful oGCDs that WoW doesn't have anyway), and so again more focus is placed on their healing kits vs damage kits alone.

Moving away from WoW, Everquest Clerics (old school, I know) charitably had 2-3 damage spells that they'd use at any given time, depending on content (some of their lines only damaged Undead, making them useless otherwise), though in raids/bosses, they only cast heals when not resting for maana, so that's not even a fair comparison for damage kits never used in a practical sense. FFXI's White Mage has Dia (DoT with a debuff), Banish (direct damage with a recast timer), and Holy (big damage but with a longer recast CD), though to be fair to FFXI, you also can slot a sub Job (e.g. RDM) for access to a few more spells, and you also get weaponskills. But for the general pace and flow of combat in FFXI, I'd hardly say its WHM dps kit is more engaging than FFXIV's is.

So this isn't a slight, and I know SOME MMOs have healers with more involved kits. But I'm more pointing out that many have healer damage kits on par with (or even lighter than) FFXIV's.

So don't let frustration dictate your response?

I often don't. But I also dislike letting rudeness or insults stand unanswered - giving more casual readers the impression of truth ("He didn't contest that, so it must be true...") - and I do no let straw man caricatures of my arguments stand.

I've not comprehensively read the thread, but from what I have I don't think you and they are on the same wavelength.

THIS, though, is very likely true. Yes. Which is why I take such great pains to explain my positions - so that people who are arguing in good faith but just don't initially understand my perspective can see what I'm talking about. It's also why I get so frustrated with the people that don't even bother to try, instead saying "On, I see, so by <nuanced argument explained in depth> you mean you want to be a Cure 1 spamming Sylphie and get carried to Ultimate clears, right?"

You can, for instance, clear the entire game on BLM without ever learning or executing an alternate line. This is what most people would consider optional complexity. I think many people are advocating for "optional complexity" to be added to the healers destined to be simpler. I would consider Afflatus Misery post-buff to be a tiny little step towards a better WHM. No casual will ever be required to plan out their Lilies in order to put Rapture into buffs, but a WHM looking to better their gameplay can.

Yes, but the Afflatus Misery change produces a minimal result, and arguably was addressing an oversight. The Devs' original intent may have been to make healing vs damage a trade-off, but given they removed Energy Drain at that same time to remove that argument from SCH, I don't think that was the goal. It certainly isn't now. Misery and Toxicon both seem to speak to the fact that the Devs really don't want healing vs damage to be a trade-off/choice healers have to make as far as resource generation/consumption goes.

I also think part of the problem is what we're talking about clearing.

No one contests being able to clear MSQ - you can do that being KO for entire dungeon runs (that tanks can solo or a tankless party can clear with the tank laying on the ground and refusing to release/accept raise), with just some basic ability to dodge and press a single attack button - on ANY Job, not just healers - after picking "Very Easy" after failing any MSQ single player portions.

That's not what literally anyone is talking about here when it comes to optimization or group content.

The content is largely on Extremes and Savages, and bounces - wildly, I might add - between "No no no no no, complexity won't increase difficulty and people can clear the same content they're doing now..." to <in all caps, of people who don't want complex rotations> "YOU SHOULD BE FORCED TO PUT IN EFFORT. EVEN EXES WHICH IS CONSIDERED OUR MIDCORE CONTENT", "PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE WHY WE LOST THE GOD DAMN PURPLE AOES IN CRYSTAL TOWER" (seriously, Crystal Tower is apparently not hardcore enough...), and should "GO PLAY A GOD DAMN IDLE GAME".

Like...hard bi-polar shift between the two (though that last one was a less common case, thankfully...)

I've said repeatedly some complexity can be good, as long as we do it on some healers and leave some alone. I can't imagine any position that is more compromise and neutral than that, honestly. It's literally the "let's give everyone some of what they say they want". It's also why I mention the gatekeeping/elitism - because the only people who AREN'T getting what they want (gatekeeping) by making some healers more complex by leaving some the same would be those who want to gatekeep. Everyone else would/should be satisfied with, say, making SCH and AST more complex while leaving WHM and SGE as they are today.

all of his points are shit as multiple people keep disproving them but go off ig. and a few potental good ones doesn't mean the rest are absolute shit takes cause they are if 90% of them are shit takes i'm gonna say he's coming in here with shit takes cause he is plain and simple

Except people haven't "disprov(en)" my points.

They've called me and/or my points names.

Calling something shit is not disproving it.

SOME people - not MANY, but SOME - have argued other points or brought up counter arguments, and those people I've engaged with in-kind, and we've had decent discussion as a result. But what points of mine have been "disproven"? And even if we pretend that's happened - how does disproving one point a person makes turn all their other points to "absolute shit takes"?

There's no "plain and simple" other than you disagree with my overall position.

Judging by your posts, you think that people shouldn't be able to clear content unless they play Jobs at high levels of skill. You use phrases like "read tooltips" and "faceroll" and "stand still" (and do nothing), but literally no one is doing the latter two, and a great many people who don't enjoy complex rotations read all their tooltips. So what you're actually arguing for, while pretending otherwise, is that you want people to be required to play at very high skill levels to even clear Extremes, and you think people should routinely wipe in 4 man and 24 mans. I know you don't want to say it that way, and maybe don't even THINK about it that way, but that's what you're arguing for.

People like me have, in fact, read tooltips, and don't stand in one place, we engage with boss mechanics and try to optimizing our oGCD healing while also keeping any necessary buffer to keep our parties alive if playing with less skilled players or less organized groups.

You don't want us clearing content, so it's not "read tooltips" or "stand still and faceroll on their keyboard" that you're arguing shouldn't clear - despite you using that rhetoric.

I GET THAT, though. Despite you not outright saying it, I get what it is that you want. And I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so I'll ask it as a question and let you say it yourself if true, but it SEEMS what you want is FFXIV to be a game where casual players, low skilled players, and players that don't want to engage with complex rotations and Job mechanics should not be able to clear anything that isn't strictly MSQ. Is that your position?

Because if it is, I could very much see you disagreeing with me, since my own position is that people SHOULD be able to clear Extremes and even Savages with non-complex Jobs, because I see the challenge of those fights being the boss mechanics, not memorizing a rotation on a target dummy to the point you do it on autopilot anyway while dealing with the boss mechanics. One-button damage rotations just cuts out the middle-man.

BUT, you disagreeing with me does not make me wrong nor my arguments "shit takes".

And it's perfectly fine FOR YOU to disagree with me. You can do so without the vitriol. I get that the latter comes from me shooting down arguments of boredom, but let's be fair, that's not what your actual position is. If your actual position is what I stated above, you should just say that. If nothing else, it'll cut out a lot of time beating around the bush as I try to address what you're SAYING you want that doesn't appear to be what you ACTUALLY want, exactly.

But...this post is just making you madder, probably. I just wish, if that's truly what you DO want, you'd just say that. Then at least we could have an honest discussion about it.

You had to track all of those things... even with the extra dots or unique buffs from cards.

Tracking OGCDs are not difficult. The game gives you a flexible UI that you can slot in those pretty icons that happen to show you cooldown time.

Surely you aren't arguing that tracking 2 DoT timers was more difficult than tracking between 8 and 15 or so CDs?

Especially when I can recall all of the things we had to track manually in FFXI. Each spell in FFXI had their own cast time and cool down. There were no pretty icons. You had to either pop open your spell menu or used /recast <spellname>. GCD didn't exist. No passive mana regen either, you had to /heal or rely on other players with a Refresh ability/spell, rare/expensive gear, Ethers, or Juice. All the while manually tracking buff timers because there were no icons to show you what buff someone had (you only had the combat log to show you when something falls off) and standing in what you may think is a safe spot because enemies didn't place orange markers for mechanics (you had to guess/know). Oh, and wipes mean you lose hours to months worth of progress (counting on the content and the player). Wipe in an exp party: WHM may be a few hours loss of progress, DPS could be weeks due to wait times. EXP parties are casual content in FFXI.

Okay, to be fair....FFXI still exists, and people are here playing (or arguing about playing) FFXIV. That said, I tried to play it a few months ago, but ended up stopping. Not because the systems - I actually LIKE complex systems like that in a game that doesn't ALSO require twitch reflexes (FFXIV requires far more moving to dodge and react to mechanics than FFXI does, where you can stand much more static, have slow cast times, recharge times, and have time to chat with people in party chat during fights - not during dungeons, I mean THE FIGHTS THEMSELVES) - but ended up not liking it because the modern version is "Unlock Trusts, solo to level cap, then talk to us for parties" in the community. I LIKE old school MMOs, but only when people are playing them like old school MMOs, forming parties and leveling together, doing dungeons together, even farming enemy mobs for spell learning items. Modern FFXI is mostly unlock NPCs then Trust your way through the game.

If I wanted to do that...well, I'd play FFXIV instead. Which I already do.

[Kazelus]

How are DoTs in any way not planned for the fight? People would use the strongest to the weakest and refresh whenever the timer is running out. P3S healer's DoT always runs out right before the first dive mechanic.

Because the only things you are keeping tracks of is their timer on the boss, if a dot needs full ticks to be better than your filler, you must be sure that the timer is finished before refresh, if they have different timer, you must look at which one you have to refresh.
After sometimes, you may be used to when you have to refresh them, but it's not the same as first raidwide: this oGCDs, second: this one. Maybe, they will aligns with mechs on fights but that's not certains, so you will have to keep active tracks of them if there is nothing that aligns with refresh timer in the fight... Of course, if we have 4 dots with 30s timer, there's no point. But 3 dots with 18,24 and 30s timer ? That will be a game changer.
And the second difference with oGCDs healing, it's that you will have to refresh them more often than you use an oGCDs...

[QooEr]

This is false. As previously stated, today healers have oGCDs to keep track of and manage instead of DoTs.

we have so many ogcds, all on such a short cooldown that theyre all basically fire and forget lmao what keeping track is there to make

[Sebazy]

Correctt me if I'm wrong, but didn't we (I think you were there) determine Thunder was removed as a cross-class action in like 2.1? Considering I clearly said "from SB to ShB/EW", an ability that was only in the game for ~6 months, if that, from 2.0 to 2.1 or MAYbe 2.2, doesn't apply.

It's there for completeness. I'm not subscribing to specific windows especially given that SB is a bad baseline to start from, 4.0 SCH was arguably the worst state any healer has ever been in with 3.0 AST being the main competition for that.

Given this was a mitigation (that only worked on half the things), Temperance is this same thing.

Fair, cross class virus was a little more interesting to get value from entirely because of it only working on Strength but yeah, well remembered.

Fluid Aura was never part of WHM's general rotation (like Repose) because of the knockback. It was used almost exclusively in solo content and has been more or less superseded by Assize. It was also an oGCD, which people often leave out of these discussions. I honestly can't think of the last time Fluid Aura was relevant other than in low level dungeons too punt a runner enemy back to the Tank.

This is why it was a neat ability

It could absolutely be used on cooldown in just about any content. The trick was to push mobs into walls or push them with the direction of the pull after they were dotted so that the bind would instantly break. It was ~150 extra potency on a 30 second oGCD, close to an extra Stone II cast and entirely MP free. It was a good chunk of damage once you figured out how to use it in a non disruptive way. You had to be mobile to get value from it and IMHO it also laid the foundation for healers book/caneslapping for extra damage as well.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

This is false. As previously stated, today healers have oGCDs to keep track of and manage instead of DoTs.

Which 'oGCD'? Healing? Utility? Assize? Energy Drain? Krasis? Undraw?

Either way, the abundant of healers' oGCDs has little to do with the gameplay part I specifically mentioned: their downtime. What do we press in our downtime e.g. no damage coming out? That's right: do damage. How do we do damage? 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1. How much time we spend in our downtime in comparison to our "uptime"? Way frickin' more. There is no denying that healings are planned. [X] ability will be used during [Y] mechanic; [X] ability will be used to handle [Z] damage. You can even guess correctly fairly easy when people will make mistake because damages are hardly random which is nothing like our abundant Benison/Essential/Druocholes/Fey Union and other remaining oGCDs cannot fix then go back mashing 1 button. Couple that with so many available oGCDs with short cooldowns, what are we exactly tracking at this point?

[Katoar]

we have so many ogcds, all on such a short cooldown that theyre all basically fire and forget lmao what keeping track is there to make

I didn't have enough to heal through Curtain Call with oGCDs only nor act 4. And I often had to choose between wipe or AoE shield when Firestorms of Asphedelos were being cast as I was not seeing enough mitigation applied when the gear was low and AoE was one-shotting. It becomes even more difficult when co-healer AST is disoriented, has little knowledge of oGCDs healing and yet wants to parse high during reclears while simultaneously using Divination during adds phase. Maybe oGCDs are not as strong as you seem to think.

snip

While I haven't read everything, there are points I agree with.

This is 100% untrue. Right now, a Glarespamming WHM that refreshes Dia every 30 sec can contribute sufficient DPS to clear Enrages. If you got the changes you want, either (a) your added buttons would have to do minuscule additional damage (think DoTs that do 103 potency of damage over 9 sec; that is are damage neutral vs Glare, whatever) such that you're literally just pressing them as different buttons to do the exact same damage, or (b) your added buttons are needed for your Job to do the damage it does now/damage equal to now when adjusted for inflation (Square isn't going to increase healer damage since they balance around it being what it is now for whatever reason) in which case the Dia refreshing Glare spammer now does not do enough damage to clear enrage, or (c) somehow Square decides that you pressing more buttons DO get to do more damage, meaning your groups can shrug off Enrages...

I don't see coming nor want a change in the rotation if it is not going to set apart people with skills and people with no skills.


I also agree that Healers in PvP fall under the support DPS category. Everyone has the potential to out heal the ST HPS of every healer. SMN as a DPS job has the strongest HPS limit break in PvP.

Either way, the abundant of healers' oGCDs has little to do with the gameplay part I specifically mentioned: their downtime.

It does as the better a healer is at managing their oGCDs, the more "downtime" are they going to create for themselves. I also do not share your "downtime" concept for healers. Any GCD cast for healing is what I consider downtime and the reverse - uptime.

[Kazelus]

I didn't have enough to heal through Curtain Call with oGCDs only nor act 4. And I often had to choose between wipe or AoE shield when Firestorms of Asphedelos were being cast as I was not seeing enough mitigation applied when the gear was low and AoE was one-shotting. It becomes even more difficult when co-healer AST is disoriented, has little knowledge of oGCDs healing and yet wants to parse high during reclears while simultaneously using Divination during adds phase. Maybe oGCDs are not as strong as you seem to think.

They are, but on the early weeks you may need more than your oGCDs for safety but it becomes false very quick... Now, you can full DPS on the first curtain call if both healer are using their oGCDs correctly, second might be tricky because you most certainly uses everything on the first one, but again, that's what 3 mechs in the whole fight? the rests of the time, you're still doing your 11111112...
Same apply for firestorm of Asphodelos, being able to see that mitig is not enough to prevent one shot, and cast a shield before it kills, you're doing it good, but again, that's one moments on the fight...

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

It does as the better a healer is at managing their oGCDs, the more "downtime" are they going to create for themselves. I also do not share your "downtime" concept for healers. Any GCD cast for healing is what I consider downtime and the reverse - uptime.

You said "Tomahto", I said "Tomayto".

View it however you like, downtime/uptime, etc. It doesn't change the fact you still spam 1 nuke button when there is no outgoing damage alongside refreshing their different-in-name-but-carbon-copies-DoT; which of course, these 'no outgoing damage' periods are also lopsided-abundant. That's what exactly the 'bored healers' are complaining about in every content. Pushing these healers (or any player, really) into playing very high end contents, specifically clown fiesta, and/or unorthodox setting like that solo healing ultimates just so they can have any semblance of fun from their gameplay are only going to make them hate the rest of the game by proxy.

[Renathras]

It's there for completeness. I'm not subscribing to specific windows especially given that SB is a bad baseline to start from, 4.0 SCH was arguably the worst state any healer has ever been in with 3.0 AST being the main competition for that.

Wait, what? This is mind-boggling, considering how many people here in this very thread are asking for 4.X SCH back. They certainly don't seem to think it's a bad baseline. And lots of people are asking for HW back. Your argument seems rather counter to both.

"completeness" is fine, but we're talking 109 days:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tory_timeline/

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...7af43f3c43828a (CTRL+f "thunder")

109 days.

You can hardly make some conclusive argument about a "golden age" of healer meta-perfection complexity if we're talking about something that was only true for the first 3 and a half months (give or take) of the game (ARR relaunch). That's reaching to overstate your case a bit...

Fair, cross class virus was a little more interesting to get value from entirely because of it only working on Strength but yeah, well remembered.

Fair point, though I think this is more something they've just done with everything to make party composition less limiting. Like how Addle and Feint not affect both magic and physical damage (reduced rate for their non-specialty)

This is why it was a neat ability

I guess I just don't agree that niche abilities seldom used can be throw in the pot of "kits are now simple and boring" if, for all practical purposes, they used to be as well. Fair enough?

It could absolutely be used on cooldown in just about any content. The trick was to push mobs into walls or push them with the direction of the pull after they were dotted so that the bind would instantly break. It was ~150 extra potency on a 30 second oGCD, close to an extra Stone II cast and entirely MP free. It was a good chunk of damage once you figured out how to use it in a non disruptive way. You had to be mobile to get value from it and IMHO it also laid the foundation for healers book/caneslapping for extra damage as well.

I feel like this again goes to niche/seldom used. And believe me, I tried to find cases to use it for largely mental-RP reasons (by this I mean "I have three elements, I'm gonna use 'em, damnit!", and I loved Vivi's Water spell in FF9 - thing was damn near OP when you got it and still powerful for most of the rest of the game, and it was a nice change of pace from FF8 and FF7 having no Water element spells at all outside of Enemy Skills and Summons...or Wind for that matter...OR earth now that I think about it...) But trying to find a niche use for an ability and a way to not disrupt everyone else in your party/raid team by using it is hardly "this was something we had to break up 1-2-1-1-1-1 and we don't have it anymore", especially since it was an oGCD and so it DIDN'T break up 1-2-1-1-1-1 spam anyway.

I think part of the problem here is we're arguing several things on parallel tracks and it's all getting convoluted in the mix:

1) GCD spell use/complexity/rotations (e.g. that using GCD heals counts or doesn't count) - this is the 121111 argument.

2) oGCD spell use/complexity (e.g. if having more oGCDs now counts or having fewer oGCDs in the past but one might have done damage, so it somehow counts despite (1))

3) Damage kits in general (where Fluid Aura loss counts but gaining half a dozen oGCD heals is irrelevant)

4) Things to track, and WHICH to track (where tracking 2 DoTs is somehow harder/more skillful/busier than tracking 8+ oGCD heals)

5) Uncommon things that could be used in some situations but ignored in others (whether something that, in practice, wasn't used but COULD be counts as added complexity lost or not)

6) Whether clearing content should be gated or not, and if so (most agree it should be in some ways), what skill level and what skills tested (e.g. is merely mastering the boss mechanics enough, or does the player also need to spend hours with a target dummy to get their rotation down to auto-pilot muscle memory so they can execute it while executing boss mechanics, and/or does the player need to spend hours in out of game resources/websites to understand how to even play their Job or how to optimize it since tooltips and in-game resources will never be as robust as TheBalance?)

7) What parts of the game we're even comparing to (bringing up 2.0 abilities removed in 2.1 when most people are talking about wanting to restore 4.5 kits, for example)

8) If "mastering clunk" is a measure of "skill" or not (that is, fighting clunky/awkward mechanics like old Pet AI or Cleric Stance clunkiness was a measure of skill or was a measure of the game just being...unpolished) - this could also be worded as "What counts as complex?" Does getting Misery under buff windows count, or does hitting Cleric on CD count but somehow hitting PoM on CD not? Or did swapping into Cleric STANCE (when it actually was a stance) count, even though in practice it was used the same way healing oGCDs are used today where you press it (deactivate) when you need to heal and then go back to what you were doing (damage) once the healing need was met, just with an added keystroke in there that served no purpose other than just...being there...?

...there are so many parallel arguments, it can cause some confusion and make it difficult to have a true discussion, I think, since we're not really breaking them out (and I might be missing some) as individual points to address, we're just getting kind of a convoluted "blob" of "thing" and trying to parse out of each other's words which part of said thing is being discussed, and often getting that wrong, leading to confusion. (e.g. If we're counting 2.0 Thunder, are we counting 2.0-3.5 Fluid Aura that did damage and a knockback, or 4.X Fluid Aura that did no damage but a knockback and bind, or 5.X Fluid Aura that did no damage OR knockback but did a bind and was longer ranged...?, and are we counting it at all as a way to break up the 12111 monotony when it was an oGCD in any case?)

After sometimes, you may be used to when you have to refresh them, but it's not the same as first raidwide: this oGCDs, second: this one.

I can often, once I've done a fight a few times, know about when to refresh my DoTs based on boss mechanics. Boss mechanics do tend to line up with a lot of things, just by virtue of them tending to happen in 15-30 second increments frequently.

Maybe, they will aligns with mechs on fights but that's not certains,

But this is technically true of oGCDs as well.

Of course, if we have 4 dots with 30s timer, there's no point. But 3 dots with 18,24 and 30s timer ? That will be a game changer.

I get that people like you might enjoy this...but that sounds abjectly miserable and un-fun. I don't find squinting at a boss bar to see how much time is left on my ONE DoT enjoyable, I can't imagine I'd find it MORE enjoyable having to do it for several.

...indeed, I used to have to do that, and DIDN'T find it enjoyable. At all.

I don't see coming nor want a change in the rotation if it is not going to set apart people with skills and people with no skills.

Note here I was specifically countering the "more complex doesn't mean more difficult" argument, which absolutely is a lie. I was noting that the only way it WOULD be true is if the extra buttons were DPS neutral vs Glarespamming, which is something that no one would want - as you demonstrate here, thank you.

I also agree that Healers in PvP fall under the support DPS category. Everyone has the potential to out heal the ST HPS of every healer. SMN as a DPS job has the strongest HPS limit break in PvP.

It's kinda sad. I get that some people enjoy that, but I like being a healer. I don't MIND being a Support role class in games that actually flesh that out. One reason I'm following Pantheon's development (though I don't exactly have a lot of hope) is because having a fourth role sounds interesting to me and harks back to the old MMO days when a fourth (or arguably even fifth) role in MMOs was more common. In some cases, I might even enjoy the Support/Control role, though honestly I prefer healing (Control/Support tends to be more complex by nature and less direct/straightforward), but I do like the idea of such a role existing for people that don't want to tank or damage, but don't exactly want to heal, but still want to support the party through other means.

...but FFXIV doesn't have that, and trying it in PvP is a dice roll. I'd rather have old PvP healers back, or at least SOME of them back. At this point, I'd take a spamable, no charges, MP free Cure 1 that does 500-1000 potency of healing, just so I have a consistent and on demand heal spell to use. As it is now, if I've used Aquaveil, 2x Cure 2, and my Seraph Cure 3 (and already used Misery and Miracle), I have nothing to cast for the next 10 seconds or so but Glare, then I get ONE Cure 2 and nothing else for anther 10 seconds or so but Glare, and no healing unless LB comes up.

For a person that wants to HEAL people, that's not fun.

[Sebazy]

4.0 SCH landed in an abysmal state and barely functioned properly in dungeons whilst being flat under tuned for raids. It was enough of a mess that it got hotfixed even quicker than 3.0 AST from memory.