Rewritten MSQ - Garlemald and EW

[Cleretic]

Emet would not have done the right thing if told, and we know that because there was a sequence of events wiped from his memory where he was told, and explicitly made things worse. Emet was going to stick to a process, because that is who he is, but said process would remove Hermes from the position he needs to be in to make Zodiark, who will then defend the world from the End of Days. However, as Zodiark tempered his summoners, even the plan of 'tell the Convocation after summoning Zodiark' wouldn't have worked.

Having to keep a big secret is sad, and probably weighed on her. But given that she's trying to avoid the literal thing we saw happen that led to the problem in the first place, I think it's far from the worst thing in the ledger of anyone involved.

I've seen some of your YouTube videos and considering how hard you go on the Ascians, I don't think you should be acting as if you're the champion of fairness.

Ah, good to hear from someone who watches my videos! And as someone who watches my videos, you would know that I only talked about the Ancients before the Sundering twice; once as a scene-setter to talk about the origins of the guys who'd go on to be the Ascians, and once in one of the two political breakdown videos talking about the politics of Amaurot, and how it's more or less a parable of a nation's fall to their own faults (and some professed in-bad-faith picking apart of their political system, which sounds iffy). Every other mention of the Ascians has been as the Ascians--that is to say, the villains and origins of most of the game world's problems: the whole Ascian video of course, as well as mentions in the other politics video in the context of Emet inventing the Garlean Empire and their political outlook, as the instigators of the video subject in the Voidsent and Illuminati/Alexander videos, as the proliferators and saboteurs both of the ritual to summon primals, and Loghrif and Mitron getting a whole section in the Eden video.

You would also know that I've only talked about Venat twice, in the Ascian video and the Amaurot section of the politics video, both times in passing, and I was not interested in adjudicating her choice. Hydaelyn came up in the Blessing of Light video, but without talk of Venat as we didn't know how important she was to it. (And that video has inaccuracies thanks to Endwalker, but that's a separate subject!)

As I said: to properly take a side on this view, we must accept the darkness of where we stand. For the side of Zodiark, a vast majority of that darkness comes after the Sundering, as their tale is one of supposedly good people who go on to unrepentantly perform horrible acts, snuffing out likely more lives than they're trying to save and creating evils like the Garlean Empire. For Hydaelyn, most of that darkness is concentrated in a single act, as she performs an act of... well, I wouldn't say textbook genocide mostly because that textbook would be insane, but definitely performing an act that ended countless lives for the sake of ensuring that more wouldn't die.

As someone who sides with Team Hydaelyn (although as my videos show, not someone who cares all too much, I have greater interests), I accept that she performed an act that ended lives in extreme circumstances where doing so was the only way to avoid even greater long-term loss; an act that may be heavy and regretful, but was not a mistake. I assume you, as someone who sides with Team Zodiark (I don't know how strongly), can recognize the evils they brought into the world in their efforts to do so?

You say that like you know that for a fact. Are you reading my Oatmeal x Emet x Hythlodaeus fanfiction?

Also we are literally in a thread, right now, that someone made because they wanted to write and share their Endwalker rewrite fanfic.

[aveyond-dreams]

Could you elaborate what you mean by "kill magic"

“Killing magic,” in my view, is when the major magical forces or entities of a game are eliminated by the story’s end. Depending on the game, the protagonist may or may not lose their powers and abilities as a result, but more often that not it comes along with not only that but also the disappearance of creatures like Espers/Aeons too. I feel that this quite literally saps the magic out of a game world, especially if it’s an MMORPG that is meant to continue onward. I think that eliminating both Hydaelyn and Zodiark without any entities to “inherit their will” was a poor choice that led to the Void being pushed on us so rapidly, instead of taking the time to ground Season’s 2 story with a Heavensward-type expansion. It also eliminates the possibility of using religion as an intriguing plotline in the MSQ, because we already know that the entities who were in charge are no more so there’s no mystery to that.

With two new entities slowly building up their strength over time, the WoL/Adventurer would be free to spend an expansion or two resolving local conflicts in a given region. Heavensward is the most brought up example of this because it is a lot more concise and less spread out in scope compared to Stormblood or Shadowbringers. People have expressed wanting to see places like former Imperial territories, Meracydia, etc. but there are also people who are understandably concerned that we’ll be shipped off to the Void as early as 7.0. A comparison is often drawn between that possibility and WoW because of that game’s trend in sending the player character into more and more alternate worlds and realities/dimensions, culminating in way too much cosmic-level storytelling to make any sense.

[whitemoonflower]

This was a really enjoyable read—a potential direction I found refreshingly interesting to consider. The paths you paved for Meteion and Hermes suited them instead of being rushed into villain roles. Those who gave their lives to help the WoL reach Hydaelyn were carefully considered: passing on meaningfully (Urianger) in ways that suited them (Sadu) and gave us further insight into who they were “behind the cutscenes” (Matoya). As for the Loporrits, I’d hope they’d choose to live on and discover a true sense of purpose (and pudding). Thank you for sharing.

[Lauront]

Emet would not have done the right thing if told, and we know that because there was a sequence of events wiped from his memory where he was told, and explicitly made things worse. Emet was going to stick to a process, because that is who he is, but said process would remove Hermes from the position he needs to be in to make Zodiark, who will then defend the world from the End of Days. However, as Zodiark tempered his summoners, even the plan of 'tell the Convocation after summoning Zodiark' wouldn't have worked.

The bar here is so high that this just does not stack up. The alternative here is they get wiped out as a people. If she lacks the people skills to figure out how to get Emet or any other member of the Convocation, or even Hyth, in a position where she can calmly explain to them what happened, then how did she even act as Azem before then? You claim tempering meant this would not work, and take this as axiomatic, but Emet is able to change course in the test he puts forward to the WoL. There is absolutely nothing in the story to date suggesting this would prevent her over approaching her people on a topic they were already divided on to divulge the truth of the matter - and I mean the actual truth, not platitudes about 'suffering'. Moreover, Hermes is specifically credited with contributions to identifying the a pattern in the celestial currents that enabled them to deal with the issue, not for Zodiark in his entirety, which was research Akadaemia Anyder was focused on.

Having to keep a big secret is sad, and probably weighed on her. But given that she's trying to avoid the literal thing we saw happen that led to the problem in the first place, I think it's far from the worst thing in the ledger of anyone involved.

Hmm no I'd say it's pretty bad, especially if alternatives could be conceived. There may be reasons why she felt constrained in what she had to do, but they are nonetheless conscious decisions.

As I said: to properly take a side on this view, we must accept the darkness of where we stand. For the side of Zodiark, a vast majority of that darkness comes after the Sundering, as their tale is one of supposedly good people who go on to unrepentantly perform horrible acts, snuffing out likely more lives than they're trying to save and creating evils like the Garlean Empire. For Hydaelyn, most of that darkness is concentrated in a single act, as she performs an act of... well, I wouldn't say textbook genocide mostly because that textbook would be insane, but definitely performing an act that ended countless lives for the sake of ensuring that more wouldn't die.

Has the Q&A already slipped your mind?

Q: I am interested to know how unsundered Ascians such as Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet-Selch avoided being kicked into 14 pieces by Hydaelyn.
A: As you think back to the text towards the end Emet-Selch did imply that Venat let him live unsundered. In fact Venat did intentionally leave a tiny floor in her Sundering attack - a crack that Emet-Selch can wiggle through. Sort of like…yes it was a powerful attack but intentionally chose to do it in this fashion. So we said this in the actual game as well which is when Hydaelyn did the attack, it was a really strong one. It was delivered at the limit of her power so she couldn’t really fine tune it. So as intentional as this was when she did that big massive light attack that sundered the world, she couldn’t guarantee that Emet-Selch would live and she was kind of making a gamble. In fact what happened was, at the time that Hydaelyn performed the sundering, Emet-Selch was with Lahabrea and Elidibus (the time he was already out of being Zodiark core so he’s a little bit different than his original but nevertheless he was there) so they ended up joining forces, and escaped to the rift without being Sundered. You may recall if you read Tales of the Shadows that Elidibus, when he came out of Zodiark he ended up losing some of his memories as well as some parts of himself and that’s sort of the point in Patch 5.3 and when he “dies” you sort of know that he lost a lot in the process as well just like Emet-Selch. So yeah, basically they worked together at that time and escaped being Sundered.

Q: I don’t really understand why the Warrior of Light messing around in Elpis didn’t create any alternate timelines. What happened?
A: Well, I think the most important thing is that you can come up with your own theories for this one. In my personal interpretation however is that the timelines were always the same. Another interpretation you can have is that maybe Venat worked really hard behind the scenes to ensure the timeline didn’t go awry. Therefore the Warrior of Light was always acting in accordance with this plan of Venat so the timeline that we are aware of didn’t change when we went back to the affected. I personally think that when we went to Mare Lamentorium and we first met Argos and Argos really took to us when we were able to ride it, that's basically the proof that at that point, the timeline is going accordingly. We are adding all these stuff to New Game+ in 6.1 so if you’re interested in this I suggest you replay it and think about these questions when you’re playing it.

How are you divorcing the Ascians coming into existence from what she did so cleanly when she ensured Emet-Selch would escape under the guise of potentially aiming at preserving the timelines? She may not have a line by line explanation of what would follow, but she knows enough of the significant details based on the WoL's account to realise what was happening. The Ascians doing what they did is not some mere accident, it is integral for her plan to play out as it did, with all the risks it featured.

Her choosing to commit to the WoL's timeline is a decision with some heavy costs attached to it. And I am fine with people saying they accept these because they're perceived as necessary for the sundered not to poof out of existence (although the 8UC short story featuring an AU throws this into doubt), but equally I am not going to pretend this is the best possible plan in the absence of knowing what the alternatives actually were.

As someone who sides with Team Hydaelyn (although as my videos show, not someone who cares all too much, I have greater interests), I accept that she performed an act that ended lives in extreme circumstances where doing so was the only way to avoid even greater long-term loss; an act that may be heavy and regretful, but was not a mistake. I assume you, as someone who sides with Team Zodiark (I don't know how strongly), can recognize the evils they brought into the world in their efforts to do so?

Sorry but if your posts here are any indication, I am going to call into dispute how little you care about this or whether you're even approaching this in good faith. Nevermind how that entire post is laced in headcanon. Though by all means, if thinking I am just "ignorant" helps you cope, continue doing so.


With that said, these discussions have been had multiple times now, none of us are anywhere near agreeing, the lore remains exactly as it was, and the OP is asking for feedback on this idea and not a replay of this debate.

[Skyborne]

My condolences, it seems like this thread got linked on some sort of discord. Man with pizza walking into a flaming room.gif moment.

Thank you all for your comments! Though this thread has gone in...directions...I do still want to know what felt handled properly and what parts felt weak? Also to expand upon a previous critique:

I haven't gotten around to reading the whole thing in detail and absorb it all, but it's already better thanks to being able to actually explore Ilsaberd. I also like the Svetlana idea, as I've found it kind of baffling at how the women of the Galvus family have been... nonexistent in the story.

This would be a prime opportunity for Alphinaud to pitch the tired idea of a democracy again only for Al-Cid to laugh in his face and lambast him for trying to upend the political system the region has yearned for a return for the past several decades.

I lolled.

Personally, and this is my own taste, I would've removed timetravel entirely and have had instead use our Echo to peer into the past to find out all of this. Also, having the sundered Ascians show up to help us out -- I wouldn't blame you if you forgot about them, it seems like the writers did too. Venat, I think, works plenty well as a 'villain with good intentions' in the game as is without the narrative propping her up, but her motivations could've been elaborated on instead of being a weird confused mess of a generic 'she loves you!' support blob.

Overall I like it more than what we got already, if only because it's trying to tell a fantasy/adventure story first and foremost with a message of hope, rather than insisting on cramming the themes down my gullet like a baby bird. While 13 was not my favorite FF, I liked the Nautilus segment and what the Revelgrounds is going for... it made for more natural tension-relief moments.

I'll edit in more as more comes to mind...

[Knot_D]

>Literally eradicates 7 and 90% of shards civilization to rejoin the Source

>OMG Emet Daddy never did anything wrong!!

Venat had a good option and a bad option. She chose the bad one, all because she was more enamored with the idea of mankind than the actual individuals that made it up, and because she took Meteion's report to heart in the end.

I swear if the good option is by letting all Ancients sacrificed to Zodiark for a world like The Dead Ends's 3rd world, I'll leave any lore discussion in this forum because how dumb the Venat haters here.

[MikkoAkure]

I also like the Svetlana idea, as I've found it kind of baffling at how the women of the Galvus family have been... nonexistent in the story.

Women in Garlean culture can't rise above a certain rank (wir) and aren't allowed to inherit the throne.

I don't know where the OP got the idea of "grand duchess" but that title doesn't exist in Garlemald and their idea of Svetlana would not be able to happen. I think I remember an interview where one of the lore guys said it was another reason why Garlemald was a bad country.


Some of the writing was alright but the bits with Svetlana and Venat were kinda cringe ngl.

[Raoabolic]

Women in Garlean culture can't rise above a certain rank (wir) and aren't allowed to inherit the throne.

I don't know where the OP got the idea of "grand duchess" but that title doesn't exist in Garlemald and their idea of Svetlana would not be able to happen. I think I remember an interview where one of the lore guys said it was another reason why Garlemald was a bad country.


Some of the writing was alright but the bits with Svetlana and Venat were kinda cringe ngl.

Thing is, was it a pre zenos or post zenos lore guy? This is an important question.

[Skyborne]

Women in Garlean culture can't rise above a certain rank (wir) and aren't allowed to inherit the throne.

I don't know where the OP got the idea of "grand duchess" but that title doesn't exist in Garlemald and their idea of Svetlana would not be able to happen. I think I remember an interview where one of the lore guys said it was another reason why Garlemald was a bad country.


Some of the writing was alright but the bits with Svetlana and Venat were kinda cringe ngl.

Yep indeed, it's more that they just have... zero presence in the game and none are named at all is my beef (aside from Zenos' mother dying shortly after his birth iirc). I'm willing to handwave the "can't inherit the throne" part on account of Garlemald crumbling apart -- anyone who is backed with power (like having a one-man army demigod WoL in the pocket) could march in and stabilize things at this point. Her name and title could also stand to be changed to be more in line with the Roman naming scheme in the game.

[Theodric]

It'd be pretty bizarre for Garlemald to be declared a 'bad country' for having few women in positions of power if the various matriarchal societies in game are not also declared as such.