Will they give back kaiten to the sam?

[Reese_Clairdale]

I think it's important to note for new players or those simply unfamiliar with SAM, that Kaiten was not some ultra mega hype skill, or the *entire* identity of SAM, the situation is more subtle and nuanced than that.

It was a skill that promoted conscious decision making and gauge management during combat. You had to always make sure you had enough Kenki to boost your Iaijutsu skills right before casting so they were dealing maximum potency, a small balancing act that prevented thoughtless spam of Shinten / Kyuten. Now, zero thought or planning is needed, whether or not this a good thing is ultimately up to the individual, but if you ask most long time SAM mains if this is destructive for the job's identity, they will invariably say "Yes." They took an aspect of the job away and gave nothing in return, therefore the job is less mentally stimulating as a result.

It also was not the only aspect of SAM affected - Tenka Goken now forces you to hard cast a pitifully small circular AoE inside of a pack of monsters. When it was a long range cone AoE before the patch, you could stay safely to the side of a pack and hit everything comfortably.

Iaijustu damage was also completely gutted and had its potency spread to lower level abilities in the overall kit, the skills now just feel like another step in a combo instead of a satisfying conclusion, especially with the removal of Kaiten, which put an extra highlight on those skills both in terms of visuals and damage.

Edit for additional thoughts: I also would like to prevent a situation where, if our prayers are answered and we manage to get 6.08 SAM back, we don't suddenly have a flood of players who picked up SAM after 6.1 that don't understand the original functions of the old skills making new threads here with titles such as "WTF is the point of this new skill!? All you do is press it before Midare!", "What was the hype over Kaiten about? Seems boring.", "Circle Tenka Goken was much better because you don't need a target.", etc.

[xAFROx]

I think it's important to note for new players or those simply unfamiliar with SAM, that Kaiten was not some ultra mega hype skill, or the *entire* identity of SAM, the situation is more subtle and nuanced than that.

It was a skill that promoted conscious decision making and gauge management during combat. You had to always make sure you had enough Kenki to boost your Iaijutsu skills right before casting so they were dealing maximum potency, a small balancing act that prevented thoughtless spam of Shinten / Kyuten. Now, zero thought or planning is needed, whether or not this a good thing is ultimately up to the individual, but if you ask most long time SAM mains if this is destructive for the job's identity, they will invariably say "Yes." They took an aspect of the job away and gave nothing in return, therefore the job is less mentally stimulating as a result.

It also was not the only aspect of SAM affected - Tenka Goken now forces you to hard cast a pitifully small circular AoE inside of a pack of monsters. When it was a long range cone AoE before the patch, you could stay safely to the side of a pack and hit everything comfortably.

Iaijustu damage was also completely gutted and had its potency spread to lower level abilities in the overall kit, the skills now just feel like another step in a combo instead of a satisfying conclusion, especially with the removal of Kaiten, which put an extra highlight on those skills both in terms of visuals and damage.

Edit for additional thoughts: I also would like to prevent a situation where, if our prayers are answered and we manage to get 6.08 SAM back, we don't suddenly have a flood of players who picked up SAM after 6.1 that don't understand the original functions of the old skills making new threads here with titles such as "WTF is the point of this new skill!? All you do is press it before Midare!", "What was the hype over Kaiten about? Seems boring.", "Circle Tenka Goken was much better because you don't need a target.", etc.

Well phrased. That's exactly what the problem is with the 6.1 changes overall for SAM. A simplified gamestate that gave nothing of value in return for what was altered.

Thank you and the others who manage to put it so eloquently. I hope the devs eventually understand this facet we've all pointed out.

[Quor]

Edit for additional thoughts: I also would like to prevent a situation where, if our prayers are answered and we manage to get 6.08 SAM back, we don't suddenly have a flood of players who picked up SAM after 6.1 that don't understand the original functions of the old skills making new threads here with titles such as "WTF is the point of this new skill!? All you do is press it before Midare!", "What was the hype over Kaiten about? Seems boring.", "Circle Tenka Goken was much better because you don't need a target.", etc.

This is also a concern I have; people who picked SAM up after 6.1 and have no context to understand why the original SAM playerbase wants the changes to be reverted, and then SE using that as justification, part or whole, for not reverting SAM.

[Kolsykol]

I think they will, but not until 6.2

[Dzian]

This is also a concern I have; people who picked SAM up after 6.1 and have no context to understand why the original SAM playerbase wants the changes to be reverted, and then SE using that as justification, part or whole, for not reverting SAM.

I mained it for 4.0 and 5.0 and honestly it doesnt feel much different to me. kaiten was just a "busy button" anyway.. when you're powering up eveny move it doesnt feel powerfull or carry a wow factor. just feels normal.. "yay this midare hit for the same as every other one ive done. big woop!"

the bit i can agree with is the guage is crap but it was crap all along... they could easily scrap the guage entirely and just put shinten on a cooldown..

I think they will, but not until 6.2

Took em a full expansion to fix cast bar bard and that was arguably in a much worse state.. still see plenty of sams.. hardly ever saw bards back then

[RyuuZero]

I mained it for 4.0 and 5.0 and honestly it doesnt feel much different to me. kaiten was just a "busy button" anyway.. when you're powering up eveny move it doesnt feel powerfull or carry a wow factor. just feels normal.. "yay this midare hit for the same as every other one ive done. big woop!"

the bit i can agree with is the guage is crap but it was crap all along... they could easily scrap the guage entirely and just put shinten on a cooldown..

Ehh disagree with your take, yes it was a busy button but it also made you keep in mind to keep 20 Kenki for your next Iaijutsu, to get that right was easy but the boosted damage also was rewarding, with the later additions like Shinten/Kyuten Guren and Senei (in my opinion) were made so you have more burst options to skim off excess Kenki, the Balance you were responsible for is my Argument that Kenki wasn't crap all along^^

otherwise even more players would fumble cluelessly around with Samurai, but that wasn't the case, because Samurai had a firm design, which is now stripped away in favor for spam

[Deveryn]

They could bring it back, but they'll only have to take it out again as more skills get added over the years. Button bloat is a real thing.

[Ruminous]

They could bring it back, but they'll only have to take it out again as more skills get added over the years. Button bloat is a real thing.

Dragoon has way more button bloat than samurai does. A lot more unique buttons they need to press. Guess we'll see how badly they F it up on the next live letter.

Anyway, kaiten shouldn't have been pulled from this version of samurai, because of its interaction with the rest of the kit. Class needs to be broken down and rebuilt or kaiten needs to be returned. That's all that needs to happen. But to say kaiten was "button bloat" is a very bad argument when the current version of samurai (without kaiten) really has no need for a kenki meter at all now. You could disable it in your hud and play without that clutter on your screen because tracking the number is pointless with no reason to save kenki otherwise. See shinten light up? Hit it! Exciting.

[Deveryn]

Dragoon has way more button bloat than samurai does. A lot more unique buttons they need to press. Guess we'll see how badly they F it up on the next live letter.

Anyway, kaiten shouldn't have been pulled from this version of samurai, because of its interaction with the rest of the kit. Class needs to be broken down and rebuilt or kaiten needs to be returned. That's all that needs to happen. But to say kaiten was "button bloat" is a very bad argument when the current version of samurai (without kaiten) really has no need for a kenki meter at all now. You could disable it in your hud and play without that clutter on your screen because tracking the number is pointless with no reason to save kenki otherwise. See shinten light up? Hit it! Exciting.

Dragoon has a lot to cycle through, but there's nothing quite so useless and busy as Kaiten. RIP forever.

[AsiTsurugi]

... but there's nothing quite so useless and busy as Kaiten....

Well, you're here, so.