Fixing Every Healer Job

[WaxSw]

Sch

The problem with your Sch changes is that you add opportunity cost to even more Sch mechanics without addresing any of the current issues aetherflow has. Currently Sch wants to heal with aetherflow as little as possible with one of its core mechanics an with stuff like Fey fury, fey divination and fey frenzy we make it so it wants to no heal with the fairy gauge too.

I think there are good changes like the return of dots and the spread stratagem but Sch is a healer and this design punish Sch anytime they want to heal with anything that interacts with any of their gauges instead of creating a situation where they want to rely on those.

Sage Changes

Good ideas in theory but not all that good in practice, to summarize:

-Physis changes would make the tool completely useless in downtime scenarios meaning Sage would have a disadvantage healing there and in stuff like ultimates downtime is present (and in DSR a lot). I think the idea of an AoE kardia should go in soteria, a tool that is already useless in downtime, making it trigger a kardia heal in all the party members and an aditional 70% potency kardia heal on the kardia target (so it doesn't lose its niche as single target sustain)

-Ixochole changes would be very bad when doom mechanics happen making sage ill suited to deal with those as aside holos and pneuma (both locked until very high Shb and EW endgame) all the hp heal Sage would have is prognosis and the physis you propose, but as prognosis doesn't trigger kardia physis there would be useless too. Like Physis I like the concept but there is other skill that would benefit from that and its holos, not only it change woudn't leave Sage without HP heals at lower levels but also would make holos a more cohesive tool as both the shield and the damage reduction are effects you want to trigger before the attack happens instead of how now both effects want to happen at different times (hp after the attack but mitigation before)

-Toxicon, a nice addition but not a meaningful one. Sage use toxicon as either AoE dps tool or movement tool and both uses are much more meaningful than the extra heal

-Duodosis, I like the idea of the combo but... that's all? You just changed 1 spam into 1-2 spam, where are the kit interactions? where are the build up or additional effects? Where are the branching paths? A standard combo works in other classes because as filler when its used its effects go further than just damage (building gauge, branching paths, giving buffs...) but this combo doesn't really do anything like that, its fake depth.

-Eukrasia Duodosis would barely be used if used at all, its in reality a 340 heal at the cost of dps potency in a class bloated with free heals. Eukrasian Diagnosis at least has a niche of building up toxicon and even with that is barely used because single target sustain is not a problem in the current game so a similar fate would await this attack.


I think that the main problem of these Sage changes is that as the "dps healer" it barely changes its dps rotation in a meaningful way and creates a way more limiting playstyle when healing.

[SirShady]

Sch.

I think the main problem here honestly is mostly the fact that Scholar already has a plethora of OGCD healing, and the faerie gauge being tied to Fey Union really limits its use. I think if we swapped Fey Union (Fey Union costs 1 aetherflow to tether for 9 seconds to an ally?) with Energy Drain and used the Faeria Gauge strictly a DPS spender that would eliminate the problem, but it might be a bit tricky. Not sure how other Scholar players would feel about that.

Sage changes.

Honestly the Sage changes were a big WIP when I pushed them to the forums. I was passing out at my desk and figured I'd look them over later lol. Your feedback here is really helpful! It really highlights the rough spot shield healers are in.

Physis changes would make the tool completely useless in downtime scenarios meaning Sage would have a disadvantage healing there and in stuff like ultimates downtime is present (and in DSR a lot). I think the idea of an AoE kardia should go in soteria, a tool that is already useless in downtime, making it trigger a kardia heal in all the party members and an aditional 70% potency kardia heal on the kardia target (so it doesn't lose its niche as single target sustain)

Honestly, it's a valid worry with stuff like downtime and Doom causing problems. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for the healers to have certain weaknesses, but I can see it being stifling in certain content. Perhaps the jump from Physis I to Physis II could heal at the same or slightly reduced potency, but give the Kardia buff to allies for 10 seconds to compensate? That would you could still use it in combination with Prognosis for downtime but a good chunk of value comes from the Kardia buff.

In retrospect, I wouldn't touch Ixochole and would much rather gives that change to Holos, like you said. That makes a lot more sense.

Good point on Toxicon. I would rather move the focused Kardia aspect of it to something else then as more of an emergency button.

The point of the combo is to balance their healing around using Duodosis carefully, managing the HP of the tank while putting out as much personal DPS as possible, but I get what you're saying. I've thrown up a new idea, using a three hit combo which accumulates more Addersting, which can be used on higher potency and higher healing. Toxikon would still be the go-to in AoE and mobility situations. Let me know what you think!

[WaxSw]

I think the main problem here honestly is mostly the fact that Scholar already has a plethora of OGCD healing, and the faerie gauge being tied to Fey Union really limits its use. I think if we swapped Fey Union (Fey Union costs 1 aetherflow to tether for 9 seconds to an ally?) with Energy Drain and used the Faeria Gauge strictly a DPS spender that would eliminate the problem, but it might be a bit tricky. Not sure how other Scholar players would feel about that.

It would make them heal more yes however some would complain about how in encourages overhealing and kinda goes against the fairy identity as its not something that is there to damage

Physis

That would be better but I still think physis would suffer more than gain anything from that change as it limits the applications of its heal buff (no more buffing GCD shields or you lose kardia procs) and in downtime it would still feel bad to use as well as making it a more impractical tool than current version in the case you have high healing scenarios where you gotta use multiple GCD heals. Personally I feel that if you really want to make physis something that procs kardia making it an attack like pneuma (with point blank aoe so its used in downtime) would work (and open up synergy with Zoe) and as said Soteria could be the "kardia for everyone" button

Toxicon and Dps

If you want an emergency kardia button I'd suggest something that makes the GCD heals proc it for a short while, GCD heals are mainly for emergencies so it would fit well and make the kardia mechanic not useless in those scenarios. With that said I don't think emergency buttons like that should be a focus for a barrier healer fix as their whole kit is around avoiding said scenarios

I like the new combo idea but I feel adding 2 more buttons like that would make Sage get too close to button bloat. I think in this department you're forgetting that Sage's identity is also being able to change the buttons with actions like eukrasia (even if this identity is very undeveloped) so maybe that button bloat problem could be solved if you lean on eukrasia versions of existing buttons or new buttons.

[SirShady]

Scholar stuff

Yeah, honestly at this point I think the faerie gauge should just be removed, totally reworked, or left in its current meh state. It's such a clunky system with it only being a tether that's tied with all your aetherflow healing.

Physis

I gotta be honest, I've never actively thought about Physis buffing the GCD shields when I use it since I so rarely need to spend time shielding as a Sage anyway. That's just a nice little bonus when getting through the end of P4S2. A good work around would be making it so the Kardia buff is only spent by a certain number of attacks, but honestly I don't think losing an extra GCD in the rare instance you actually want to shield isn't worth stressing over. It's a tiny bit of antisynergy for a really niche case. Besides, now you have Holos to shield with as well, which is better than a physis buffed Eukrasian prognosis. I think losing 50 potency during downtime healing wouldn't make or break Sage's ability to get through mechanics. If the downtime is 10 seconds, that's still only an 150 potency of healing you're missing, less than a third of cure I, but I understand the concern.

If I'm understanding what you're saying about making it into an attack, it would just proc Kardia the one time? It might as well just be Pneuma then. I like the idea of it applying Kardia and then the healing being based on which attacks the Sage decides to use. You could potentially get more mileage out of it with your addersting spenders. My problem with making Soteria the "kardia for everyone" button is that there's already a superfluous amount of OGCD healing in Sage's kit, and outright buffing Soteria to be another AoE heal when you already have so much free heals flying around wouldn't make the "vampire healer" identity stand out. The other problem is that Physis is on a shorter cooldown than Soteria. It is the most used AoE heal on Sage because it doesn't cost Addersgall. Physis is the perfect button to put this kind of mechanic on to embrace that Kardia playstyle.

Emergency Kardia Button

The point here is to lean into that "vampire healing" archetype. Yes, just having the GCD heals proc Kardia would functionally work, but that goes against the job identity. Tying heals to your Addersting (which is much more available because of the new combo) means you get much more healing from dealing damage, and balancing your stacks with how much healing you might need as well as your new Kardia-applying physis and Soteria lends a great deal of depth to it. The point of the changes is to tie your personal damage kit to your basic healing playstyle, and to have the OPTION for it to work as an emergency button if you synergize it with your other cooldowns, but honestly a Zoe'd Pneuma will do you better in most of those circumstances anyway since it comes out faster. Simply applying Kardia to your GCD heals for a time doesn't provide this same synergy or job fantasy.

With that said I don't think emergency buttons like that should be a focus for a barrier healer fix as their whole kit is around avoiding said scenarios

Maybe I said something wrong here, but I don't want the Addersting heals to be an emergency button. I'm trying to lean into the "vampire healer" playstyle. They should be a large portion of your heals, that CAN become an emergency button with proper use of the new Physis with Soteria, so long as you've kept a stack or two of Addersting.

On an unrelated, I don't think I'd even call Sage a shield healer anyway. You rarely if ever should shield outside of putting Eukrasia Diagnosis on the tank before pulls and Eukrasia Prognosis in ultimate, and the only synergy shielding has with your kit is using Zoe/Physis to buff your next shield, which again is incredibly rare. Sage really is just a standard healer with shields tacked on to its design. If anything, my new kit encourages more shielding with the changes to Holos and Druochole.

As far button bloat, you can't expect to not add any buttons if you want to give them a DPS rotation. Your only other options be to make it a two part combo with the second attack's Eukrasia mode being tied to Addersting. I made it a three hit combo because...

-Duodosis, I like the idea of the combo but... that's all? You just changed 1 spam into 1-2 spam, where are the kit interactions? where are the build up or additional effects? Where are the branching paths? A standard combo works in other classes because as filler when its used its effects go further than just damage (building gauge, branching paths, giving buffs...) but this combo doesn't really do anything like that, its fake depth.

I mean we get rid of Tridosis and just stick to Duodisis and make it a 1-2 combo that builds Addersting, to use on the Eukrasia'd version. This would lower it to only 1 new button.

[Silver-Strider]

Yeah, honestly at this point I think the faerie gauge should just be removed, totally reworked, or left in its current meh state. It's such a clunky system with it only being a tether that's tied with all your aetherflow healing.

Why not have the Fairy Gauge work sort of like BRD's Soul Gauge then?
Have Bio and Miasma have a chance of building up the gauge by 5 points per tic, with Broil also granting 5 gauge and having each Fairy ability cost 25/50 gauge to use with the SCH starting off with a full gauge.
Dissipation would need to be reworked for it to function but it could work.

[SirShady]

Why not have the Fairy Gauge work sort of like BRD's Soul Gauge then?
Have Bio and Miasma have a chance of building up the gauge by 5 points per tic, with Broil also granting 5 gauge and having each Fairy ability cost 25/50 gauge to use with the SCH starting off with a full gauge.
Dissipation would need to be reworked for it to function but it could work.

Yeah honestly having the Fairy Gauge tied to Aetherflow is just a clunky idea overall, but folks here didn't seem to like the idea of a passive resource gain, and I think having it apply to the DoTs would be too much RNG. I'd rather they just scrapped Fey Union at this point and turn the gauge into a support tool. Let it give out buffs instead of having it be just a resource for an interruptible tether heal running off of other healing...

[WaxSw]

Fae gauge

Yeah its an underused gauge at this point and they should lean far more into it with a hopefully rework of aetherflow

Physis

Yeah the buff is far from the most important thing but it just was one of those nitpicks that in the case of a full Sage fix I'd like to see addressed, there is also the question of relative kardia power in that physis vs the regen as if the regen is high enough to make the kardia buff loss not relevant then, Why is there? and if its a relevant lost then Sage is losing more than gaining.

The thing about the physis GCD is that precisely by adding it to soteria as the kardia for everyone Sage doesn't really lose any AoE healing Ogcd while gaining more strenght into the dps to heal identity and interactions with Zoe which I also consider another underdeveloped mechanic. The cooldown discussion I feel is meaningless firstly because those can be changed around in the case of a fix and lastly because physis is not even close to be the most used Sage heal, Kerachole is, and by a huge gap as its used close to on cooldown due to its insane power.

Emergency kardia

Probably didn't read it right then if its for the sake of the dps to heal go ahead, it just seemed you were treating it like an emergency only thing.

The unrelated

The whole shield vs regen healer to begin with is a stupid discussion to be fair, one of those things the devs "want" to impose to us while failing in the design departament

Button bloat and the dps

Here I disagree heavily, one can have a decent enough rotation without introducing barely any buttons and BLM is the living example of how with little core buttons there is a deep and interesting rotation relying more on passive effects, upgrades and traits than introducing brand new stuff to press

If you don't mind I'll try to do a (pretty flawed) example of how with your buttons imo it could be done using something I thought about time ago:

Dosis->Duodosis: gives addersting like you said.
Toxicon: spender of addersting, when used gives a buff stack that increases the potency of the next eukrasian toxicon.
Eukrasian toxicon: lower damage than toxicon unless buffed and uses addersting too, its use gives a stack that buffs Eukrasian duodosis.
Eukrasian Duodosis: lowest damage of the kit unless buffed when it becomes stronger than the previous tools
Phlegma: Also gives addersting

So you have Dosis->Duodosis combo that builds into Toxicon->E!Toxicon combo that build into E!Duodosis as the final spender, inbetween you use phlegma and keep the dot ticking
Of course this is flawed as it would give sage way too much mobility for example, potencies would have to be thought about and it may not interat well with the party buffs but stuff like that is what I meant by leaning into eukrasia more as it allows to have essentialy a double button for every new button that is added.

[Nizzi]

Yeah its an underused gauge at this point and they should lean far more into it with a hopefully rework of aetherflow

Genuine curious question - why do people want the devs to make Scholar revolve around the Fae Gauge? Gauge in this game are all the same thing - they're build and spend. What could be done with "leaning into" the Fae Gauge that wouldn't be the same thing it is at the moment?

And why do you think that Aetherflow needs a rework? In my opinion, it works far better than Lilies or Addersgall do for WHM or SGE and it's way more flexible in usage and implementation.

[WaxSw]

fey gauge and aetherflow

Its all personal opinion but about the gauge is mainly because it can give more depth to the fairy skills than only being limited by a cooldown. It could allow for a more interesting resource management, it would be build and spend yes but if properly managed it could lead to Sch having to think more deeply about the efficiency of the tools vs their effectiveness in the short and long term, allowing smart and efficient Sch to rely more on their pets than less experienced ones and as such giving a skill ceiling in the healing that is not simply "do not use X unless you dont have anything else"and because right now is used in a way that has very little impact on Sch gameplay when one could think that in a pet healer a pet related gauge would be something big. (I have an old example of how I'd envisioned that gauge in this forum that could give a better idea of what I talk about, keep in mind it was before EW tho)

About Aetherflow:

Because it does not fit the current game, the game is moving to a place where more free healing is happening than ever and Aetherflow in its current iteration only serves to punish Sch when used to fulfil its role. One could argue that it serves as a way to force Sch to really think about the way they approach their healing and while that is to some extent true the approach is very rarely something more deep than "not use it" instead of "use X instead of Y" is not that much of depth, if healing is a puzzle "do not use this piece that is core to the job" shoudn't be the correct solution that often, worst of all is that in relevant content the Sch is rarely the one paying for its own mistakes as is usually the cohealer who has to pick up the slack. One could also argue that is allows Sch for more dps depth but imo that should come from its own dps rotation and not from a tool that penalize it for healing, especially when once again, if the healing is not done properly more often than not the Sch is not the one paying the consequences

About the flexibility sorry but I disagree, Addersgall and Aetherflow are the exact same thing with the only difference being that one does not penalize the job that interacts with the system and as such all of the tools in it are used more frequently while the other penalize its use on any heal, look at the parses and see out of all the aetherflow how many are used on ED vs the rest of actions if they are used at all (Spoiler: Top Sch in P4s only use AE to heal once and left its cohealer deal almost twice as much healing as they did). The current Aetherflow design creates a dominant strategy within the mechanic of using it in ED in almost its entirely while Addersgall allow for its tools to have breathing room where they all can see use (Same argument with Lillies with the difference of not being so quite the exact same thing and its use being encouraged more as it makes the job not only more capable of healing but also allows for smart Whm to capitalize raid buffs).