Interpretation of an Endwalker Plot Point (Spoilers for the Entire MSQ)

[KageTokage]

I'm kind of hoping they eventually elaborate more deeply on the metaphysics of soul including exactly what it is that makes Echo bearers special and by extension the Ancients.

I'm also rather curious about exactly what it takes to completely extinguish a soul, considering that "shattering" an Ascian's soul does not entail destroying it entirely but simply compromising its integrity to the point where they can no longer resist the Lifestream's pull. Completely draining someone's incorporeal aether is also implied to not be sufficient to destroy the soul and that there's some deeper, more durable aspect (Perhaps the part that has a "color" that only can be perceived by those with an exceptionally keen manifestation of the Echo) that can survive virtually any form of death; with Endwalker being the first time it's been explicitly stated that they can be removed from the cycle entirely through extreme circumstances.

[MediocreIndigo]

I don't think she is gone.

Byregot "And in Hydaelyn's absence, we are the star's rightful rulers. It's will."

I am sure Yoshi will get his favorite Mommy back in Game.

I have to say I disagree with this. Like I said before, I don't think she's gone in the sense of being completely removed from the Lifestream, but that doesn't mean she's making a reappearance in the story. Even if her soul was to somehow reform or if its expended aether was incorporated into new souls, she would most likely come back as a new person, not Venat. Regardless of the specifics, the story of Hydaelyn and Zodiark is over.

[MediocreIndigo]

Even in-universe, both the Watcher and the Twelve seem pretty sure she's gone and are acting accordingly. And I'm struggling to think of anyone in the game world that's more knowledgeable about this specific fact than them.

After beating 6.0, if you go back to talk to the Watcher, he says "The Loporrits have told me of your victory over Meteion. It is a relief to know Hydaelyn's wish for Etheirys and Her people was granted. She is not here to revel in your victory, but so long as there is life on Etheirys, Her spirit shall live on. In the soothing summer rains, and gentle spring breezes, She will be with you always." While she may not be physically present, the Watcher seems to imply that her will lives on among the inhabitants of Etheirys. I've also seen people interpret this statement as meaning she has been incorporated into the star itself.

[MediocreIndigo]

I'm kind of hoping they eventually elaborate more deeply on the metaphysics of soul including exactly what it is that makes Echo bearers special and by extension the Ancients.

I'm also rather curious about exactly what it takes to completely extinguish a soul, considering that "shattering" an Ascian's soul does not entail destroying it entirely but simply compromising its integrity to the point where they can no longer resist the Lifestream's pull. Completely draining someone's incorporeal aether is also implied to not be sufficient to destroy the soul and that there's some deeper, more durable aspect (Perhaps the part that has a "color" that only can be perceived by those with an exceptionally keen manifestation of the Echo) that can survive virtually any form of death; with Endwalker being the first time it's been explicitly stated that they can be removed from the cycle entirely through extreme circumstances.

I mentioned this earlier but there's evidence to suggest that turning into a blasphemy doesn't actually remove someone from the cycle of reincarnation. Y'shtola witnessing the decay of the aether of people turned into blasphemies with her aethersight is what initially leads the characters to assume that they're unable to return to the aetherial sea, but if you do the healer role quests you see Fordola experience a vision of her friend Charlet leaving for the afterlife, despite the fact that he had succumbed to the transformation.

[Cleretic]

After beating 6.0, if you go back to talk to the Watcher, he says "The Loporrits have told me of your victory over Meteion. It is a relief to know Hydaelyn's wish for Etheirys and Her people was granted. She is not here to revel in your victory, but so long as there is life on Etheirys, Her spirit shall live on. In the soothing summer rains, and gentle spring breezes, She will be with you always." While she may not be physically present, the Watcher seems to imply that her will lives on among the inhabitants of Etheirys. I've also seen people interpret this statement as meaning she has been incorporated into the star itself.

It's... really difficult, it turns out, to describe how I take that to be 'she lives on through the world around us' without that literally meaning that she is alive because we're dealing with a setting where that is also possible, but I genuinely believe that he's saying that in the way that us human beings would say that about a dead family member. She's with us in the spiritual sense, but not in the literal spiritual sense of her spirit being an extant thing that is with us.

I mentioned this earlier but there's evidence to suggest that turning into a blasphemy doesn't actually remove someone from the cycle of reincarnation. Y'shtola witnessing the decay of the aether of people turned into blasphemies with her aethersight is what initially leads the characters to assume that they're unable to return to the aetherial sea, but if you do the healer role quests you see Fordola experience a vision of her friend Charlet leaving for the afterlife, despite the fact that he had succumbed to the transformation.

And I never took this to be an actual vision Fordola saw, and more of what Fordola is convinced is happening. Fordola's pretty far out of the loop in terms of essential information, so she probably doesn't know what Y'shtola told us, and even if she did... well, she's exactly the kind of boneheaded stubborn person to ignore it anyway. I love Fordola, she's great, but she is not smart.

I do think that people who became blasphemies are back in the cycle of reincarnation, but that's because we stopped Meteion vacuuming them up into Ultima Thule. But we also know that the lifestream deposits souls into the nearest planet, so chances are Charlet's not joining us in the Source even if his soul gets to live again.

[SentioftheHoukai]

It's... really difficult, it turns out, to describe how I take that to be 'she lives on through the world around us' without that literally meaning that she is alive because we're dealing with a setting where that is also possible, but I genuinely believe that he's saying that in the way that us human beings would say that about a dead family member. She's with us in the spiritual sense, but not in the literal spiritual sense of her spirit being an extant thing that is with us.



And I never took this to be an actual vision Fordola saw, and more of what Fordola is convinced is happening. Fordola's pretty far out of the loop in terms of essential information, so she probably doesn't know what Y'shtola told us, and even if she did... well, she's exactly the kind of boneheaded stubborn person to ignore it anyway. I love Fordola, she's great, but she is not smart.

I do think that people who became blasphemies are back in the cycle of reincarnation, but that's because we stopped Meteion vacuuming them up into Ultima Thule. But we also know that the lifestream deposits souls into the nearest planet, so chances are Charlet's not joining us in the Source even if his soul gets to live again.

I think what you meant to say, or maybe should have said instead.... is that Fordola isn't wise. She isn't exactly stupid. Her crimes aren't justifiable, nothing is. But I can see how she got where she did, ideologically even if I don't support the outcome. It was her kinsmen, the Ala Mhigans who killed her father and ripped her family apart. What right did they have to say she and her family couldn't play it safe and pander to their Garlean oppressors if it meant their daughter got to grow up prosperous and happy?

[MediocreIndigo]

I think what you meant to say, or maybe should have said instead.... is that Fordola isn't wise. She isn't exactly stupid. Her crimes aren't justifiable, nothing is. But I can see how she got where she did, ideologically even if I don't support the outcome. It was her kinsmen, the Ala Mhigans who killed her father and ripped her family apart. What right did they have to say she and her family couldn't play it safe and pander to their Garlean oppressors if it meant their daughter got to grow up prosperous and happy?

On the subject of Fordola I think it was interesting how Stormblood portrayed the different reactions the Ala Mhigans had to Imperial rule. Fordola doesn't serve the Empire out of a sense of loyalty (she's constantly treated like crap by her Garlean peers for being Ala Mhigan and she watched Imperial soldiers stand by and do nothing as she and her father were attacked by an angry mob), but rather because she believed it was the most realistic path to gain respect from the Garleans. She couldn't fathom the idea of Ala Mhigo driving the Empire out because she had lived under it her entire life. She's proven wrong after the Ala Mhigan Resistance successfully liberates the nation, and while she initially resigns herself to execution after having done all the things she did, she's given a new purpose by Lyse and Raubahn (albeit as a conscript) and begins to use her skills for good. I really enjoyed where they took her character during the healer role quests.

[MediocreIndigo]

And I never took this to be an actual vision Fordola saw, and more of what Fordola is convinced is happening. Fordola's pretty far out of the loop in terms of essential information, so she probably doesn't know what Y'shtola told us, and even if she did... well, she's exactly the kind of boneheaded stubborn person to ignore it anyway. I love Fordola, she's great, but she is not smart.

I do think that people who became blasphemies are back in the cycle of reincarnation, but that's because we stopped Meteion vacuuming them up into Ultima Thule. But we also know that the lifestream deposits souls into the nearest planet, so chances are Charlet's not joining us in the Source even if his soul gets to live again.

I guess that's one way of looking at it. Obviously I took that scene much more literally but given that it leaves room for interpretation your perspective could easily be right, too. Sharing personal interpretations based on information presented in the story is how I started out this thread, after all.

[SentioftheHoukai]

On the subject of Fordola I think it was interesting how Stormblood portrayed the different reactions the Ala Mhigans had to Imperial rule. Fordola doesn't serve the Empire out of a sense of loyalty (she's constantly treated like crap by her Garlean peers for being Ala Mhigan and she watched Imperial soldiers stand by and do nothing as she and her father were attacked by an angry mob), but rather because she believed it was the most realistic path to gain respect from the Garleans. She couldn't fathom the idea of Ala Mhigo driving the Empire out because she had lived under it her entire life. She's proven wrong after the Ala Mhigan Resistance successfully liberates the nation, and while she initially resigns herself to execution after having done all the things she did, she's given a new purpose by Lyse and Raubahn (albeit as a conscript) and begins to use her skills for good. I really enjoyed where they took her character during the healer role quests.

Yeah, Fordola is one of the few characters left untainted imho. Her character development is one of the very few I actually enjoy to this day. She was mistreated by her own kinsmen rather then their oppressors, which is a rarity to see being shown realistically and properly and is rather more common than some unsavory characters on the other side of the divide would like to admit. Her feelings on the matter were by and large rather valid, even if her subsequent actions leave a lot to be desired and frankly harmed her case. Then, come Endwalker unlike some others her goals and motivations remain largely unchanged. She regrets all the things she feels she shouldn't have done, yes. However, unlike some others she does not sacrifice previous aspects of her character in exchange for new, more palatable ones. She evolves, rather than is hamfistedly changed on a dime. A butterfly metamorphosis, rather than a statue rendered a lump of clay and completely reformed.

[Slatersev]

Yeah, Fordola is one of the few characters left untainted imho. Her character development is one of the very few I actually enjoy to this day. She was mistreated by her own kinsmen rather then their oppressors, which is a rarity to see being shown realistically and properly and is rather more common than some unsavory characters on the other side of the divide would like to admit. Her feelings on the matter were by and large rather valid, even if her subsequent actions leave a lot to be desired and frankly harmed her case. Then, come Endwalker unlike some others her goals and motivations remain largely unchanged. She regrets all the things she feels she shouldn't have done, yes. However, unlike some others she does not sacrifice previous aspects of her character in exchange for new, more palatable ones. She evolves, rather than is hamfistedly changed on a dime. A butterfly metamorphosis, rather than a statue rendered a lump of clay and completely reformed.

She was mistreated by her oppressor's as well. They literally stood there and let he loyal to Garlemald father get stoned to death. They mocked her as a savage her entire life. They imply in Stormblood she is only in Zeno's good graces through sexual favors, etc.

Fordola legit gets treated better overall as a prisoner then she did as an innocent child or as a solider.