We lost 70% of our player base half a year in

[Sqwall]

I feel WoW is a few steps away from being great but has a weird direction and is not sure who it's trying to please most.

Current WoW could be great if it looked at the game less as a "personal goal driven" and more as a "shared experience driven". Things that resonate with me are the lead up to the goal...not the goal itself.

Take this current savage tier. I will probably forget that feeling of elation after dropping Hespheros. But I will NEVER forget the frustration of FOF, FOA, Flow 3, Chains, Pinax, Curtain Call, etc. etc. Overcoming those moments was the REAL goal. Finished P4S was kind of sad for me....it's over...it's done. I won't have that moment again. The only thing left is all the memories and shared experience I had with my static group. Talking about strategies. Listening to the healers talk about when to use strong heals and mitigation (no idea what there talking about unless its AST). My OT and I on the same wavelength an understanding when to shirk, voke, stance on stance off, invuln, toss out nascent to them, gives me TBN.

Those are the moments I will cherish....

Climbing a mountain is long and arduous, followed up with shear elation of reaching the summit as your reward....so is the climb back down...

WoW was weird as when it came out it was unlike ANYTHING out there. I have life long friends that I still talk with till this day that I met back in 2004 when I was 21. WoW came at a VERY opportune time in my life and I found an outlet for myself through the game.

FFXIV gives me that in neat little packages that I can continually visit. Once I complete the goal the only thing I remember is everything I encountered along the way. I almost never remember achieving the goal. Is that wired?

[Shougun]

Current WoW could be great if it looked at the game less as a "personal goal driven" and more as a "shared experience driven". Things that resonate with me are the lead up to the goal...not the goal itself.

Take this current savage tier. I will probably forget that feeling of elation after dropping Hespheros. But I will NEVER forget the frustration of FOF, FOA, Flow 3, Chains, Pinax, Curtain Call, etc. etc. Overcoming those moments was the REAL goal. Finished P4S was kind of sad for me....it's over...it's done. I won't have that moment again. The only thing left is all the memories and shared experience I had with my static group. Talking about strategies. Listening to the healers talk about when to use strong heals and mitigation (no idea what there talking about unless its AST). My OT and I on the same wavelength an understanding when to shirk, voke, stance on stance off, invuln, toss out nascent to them, gives me TBN.

Those are the moments I will cherish....

Climbing a mountain is long and arduous, followed up with shear elation of reaching the summit as your reward....so is the climb back down...

WoW was weird as when it came out it was unlike ANYTHING out there. I have life long friends that I still talk with till this day that I met back in 2004 when I was 21. WoW came at a VERY opportune time in my life and I found an outlet for myself through the game.

FFXIV gives me that in neat little packages that I can continually visit. Once I complete the goal the only thing I remember is everything I encountered along the way. I almost never remember achieving the goal. Is that wired?

Why would that be weird~

Enjoying the experience is usually a main part of the fun of it all. Of course this does vary from person to person, so you can't always hit a one size fits all formula. For example I'm sure some people felt elated getting their ARR relic after all the FATE grind.. to me that was like a slow form of torture lol. Though that's where I think, generally, FFXIV does pretty good at giving many different types of players the opportunity to experience something in the means they'd like (most of it being a function of time). If I think "wow that grind is just.. that's just pure awful" for the most part I know I can just wait and then it'll be more my pace later, meanwhile the people who do need a bit of 'pain' (to create powerful memories) .. there it is lol. Of course FFXIV also tends to be a bit more friendly with the pain as they've added more and more systems that are kinder like "ehy good job! now here is something relevant, cherry on top of your rush you're feeling!" rather than some MMOs (particularly older school designed) which are like "good job, but you got nothing.. so.. go again amirite?".

Of course there is rush to that pain as well, for people who try to get their kirin asode, club, turtle shield or whatever fraction of a decimal drop rate item lol, but I look back at such things and think to myself- way too much pain to offset that moment and specifically a very real chance that all that pain is not worth it 'ever' (very real chance you could spend hundreds of hours for a 0.X% drop item and never get it, meanwhile you'll be filled green with envy and maybe even rage when some person 'gets it on their first try'). Alternatively, especially in context of those hyper painful designs, I can simply play a fantastic game that doesn't require almost anything perceivable as 'pain' and still have an amazing time- for example.. witcher 3. I remember that game exceptionally well, and never did I really feel like I was being disrespected or taken advantage of nor did I feel like "there is a high chance my efforts here are being manipulated or will likely be worthless" (unlike high pain grind / low drop rate designs). I'm very much in favor of respecting my psychological health, my time, and trying as best as possible to view that journey as 'fun'.

I think that's why for me, on the more casual side, I occasionally talk about movement systems like.. you know... it sounds silly but.. I think you should invest more in how you navigate the world... the journey itself is gameplay! Or in a similar thought but different system, ensuring the open world has a bit more of a journey itself (I did like the ShB gem system, but still need some more ideas I think for their open world - with other MMOs we can reference as examples.. not like we're waving blankly in the air and saying "do something", or I've, suggested ideas and you can see ideas out there in action).

I think that's a thing WoW would benefit from by killing their love of FOMO- there is some content that you can't just wait till it becomes your style. More often WoW is like "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY", now of course there are MMOs far more hardcore than WoW lol, but such an unnesccary approach that prays on the minds of players in a sort of "how can I manipulate you into being forced to take action now" and some of that might just be general game design 101 you have to consider.. but it's also blatantly obvious and therefore feels insulting. To which I give FFXIV credit for because there are many times where I think FFXIV's team looks at something as says, "you know what, we could abuse the psychological fear more but we're going to not do that anyways".

Coming back around more to your point though- absolutely the journey itself is important. That's where I think of course those hardcore raids shine, I mean I DO NOT WANT TO DO THEM- AT ALL (because to me it's going to be A LOT of time lost to gaining nothing, given my limited time and perhaps luck if I find a group that can learn or can't.. even worse then), but ... you can read those stories, you can hear Yoshida talk about those stories, I have those stories, they're pretty powerful. It's why I love that rolling mountain design FFXIV generally uses, 'for the most part', everyone gets to approach the content in a way that will suit them.

There are amazing stories in WoW about that high energy journey, but overall I still feel the game doesn't do a very good job of respecting time, helping encourage players to enjoy majority content via functions (like time, though they do 'do that' just things like FOMO are in direct opposition), and in general the company itself seems like it's very addicted to psychological manipulation / abuse currently .

[Sqwall]

Of course there is rush to that pain as well, for people who try to get their kirin asode, club, turtle shield or whatever fraction of a decimal drop rate item lol

OK. THAT actually got me right in the heart.

We now understand one another.

/cheers

[Ayuhra]

NGL. After finishing this current savage tier (P3S nearly broke me), multiple EX trials (mounts), multiple unreals (mounts), dipping my toe in UCOB (not for me).

I took a break.

There are SOOOOO many games out there. Books. Movies. Sports. People.

I know it sounds weird, but sometimes I WANT to distant myself from the game and static group sometimes. Because when that next patch comes out...I log in and it's like seeing an old friend again. For me it's all or nothing style of playing.

Pulling up the duty finder and figuring out what I want to level...if I don't feel it....I don't even want to play. I log out and load up a different game.

Honestly, I have been playing WoW Burning Crusade Classic and just enjoying the ride to 70. Never thought I would even want to do that...but WoW was a good game during that time and it's still fun.

FFXIV is an anomaly in the MMO space that actually values your time. WoW and other MMO's had this FOMO feeling like no other. I know when I come back to the game I can catch up pretty fast, and it's better to let things take time in FFXIV. Blowing through the content isn't my goal. Taking my time and not feeling like I have to hurry.

This savage tier was my main goal for the game. I wanted to clear it before echo is allowed. Don't care about parses, don't care about perfection, and I don't strive for that. I just play the game and have fun with my static, and there are some things that I will remember from this savage tier. So many good times....and bad. (P3S...seriously)

Try Guild Wars 2 if you haven't.

Huge open world, great wardrobe (glamour) system, fun story and it is horizontal progression. You might spend a year crafting a legendary but that legendary will be great for the rest of the game. Nearly everything is account bound.

FFXIV still has more polish, being a subscription game, but its weaknesses are things GW2 excels in and GW2's weaknesses are things FFXIV excels in. They make good palate cleansers for each other.

[Shougun]

Try Guild Wars 2 if you haven't.

Huge open world, great wardrobe (glamour) system, fun story and it is horizontal progression. You might spend a year crafting a legendary but that legendary will be great for the rest of the game. Nearly everything is account bound.

FFXIV still has more polish, being a subscription game, but its weaknesses are things GW2 excels in and GW2's weaknesses are things FFXIV excels in. They make good palate cleansers for each other.

Nani?

GW2 is horizontal based game? Or how does that work, sounds cool lol.

Does it create the classic MMO problem where people are like "yeh.. you don't have these three different staffs to cast each individual spell on.. so we don't want you"

[Derio]

This is normal considering we see a large drop off during X.1 patches and a huge player spike in X.5 patches leading up to the next expansion.

[Ayuhra]

Nani?

GW2 is horizontal based game? Or how does that work, sounds cool lol.

Does it create the classic MMO problem where people are like "yeh.. you don't have these three different staffs to cast each individual spell on.. so we don't want you"

Basically, you level up and leveling is the tutorial, but does still take a while. Once you are level 80 you will be level 80 forever, expansions don't lift the cap. You progress forward through story and gain experience called "masteries" that change things you can do in the world like better fishing, faster run speed in cities, quicker time to resurrect downed allies etc. Masteries do not make your character more powerful, just make the world more interactive.

Different classes can have a number of different builds and some are meta but I've noticed the community is starting to ease up on that since hyper meta builds aren't needed outside the hardest content.

I haven't experienced instant content in it much, but so far it hasn't been on par with FFXIV's. So don't expect lots of dungeons and raids. Those are definitely there, but they are not THE end game experience.

GW2 does have world bosses though. Imagine FATES but crazier. Way crazier.

I think why I like playing GW2 and FFXIV is GW2 is buy to play and insane. FFXIV is an extremely elegant vertical experience. I feel like it is highly curated by the devs, they have an experience they want to guide you through. Guild Wars 2 once you are out on the world map you can do whatever you want. There is a story in GW2 to guide you, but you can just wander off from it.

[Shougun]

Basically, you level up and leveling is the tutorial, but does still take a while. Once you are level 80 you will be level 80 forever, expansions don't lift the cap. You progress forward through story and gain experience called "masteries" that change things you can do in the world like better fishing, faster run speed in cities, quicker time to resurrect downed allies etc. Masteries do not make your character more powerful, just make the world more interactive.

Different classes can have a number of different builds and some are meta but I've noticed the community is starting to ease up on that since hyper meta builds aren't needed outside the hardest content.

I haven't experienced instant content in it much, but so far it hasn't been on par with FFXIV's. So don't expect lots of dungeons and raids. Those are definitely there, but they are not THE end game experience.

GW2 does have world bosses though. Imagine FATES but crazier. Way crazier.

I think why I like playing GW2 and FFXIV is GW2 is buy to play and insane. FFXIV is an extremely elegant vertical experience. I feel like it is highly curated by the devs, they have an experience they want to guide you through. Guild Wars 2 once you are out on the world map you can do whatever you want. There is a story in GW2 to guide you, but you can just wander off from it.

That was very informative thank you!

Sounds like it is as you described it, a good partner to FFXIV.

I've been trying to suggest FFXIV does I guess what you described GW2 has. Damnit GW2!.. (In context for FFXIV I was hoping SE would revamp it's gameplay assisted roleplay, which I feel is something they're a bit weaker on, via systems that allowed players to better exhibit whatever they were investing into- like a Dragoon might unlock no fall damage or charged jumping passive in zones they've unlocked flying, etc).

I feel I have to try them out now, long ago I was like "mounts with personality could be really cool!" (to which I was mostly told this isn't a racing game lol), but then GW2 came out with mounts that I hear from 'most' people as a really neat system. I usually point at GW2 for that (and I've watched the videos, it looks really fun), just didn't try it because I always felt worried about having too many online games biding for my time. But.. hearing they have a horizontal like system in place that isn't aggressively "get rekt cause you didn't play 24/7" is really nice.

I think the main thing that had me not go "oooh that game looks fantastic" is the graphics look alright. Not horrible, just say I think more recent WoW and definitely FFXIV look much better. Specifically FFXIV's combat effects are really pretty (in comparison to most MMOs to be honest).

But the systems I hear from them consistently sound appealing. Seems almost a bit unfortunate that they don't have a larger backing as whoever makes their systems seems quite capable (and friendly to players, the more I hear). Perhaps that's just the nature of being B2P though.

[AmpelioB]

these 70% are the people that only log for story, nothing new here. You can see that around April there's a fluctuation that permeates until now, that's the actual player base for steam users.

[Ayuhra]

That was very informative thank you!

Sounds like it is as you described it, a good partner to FFXIV.

I've been trying to suggest FFXIV does I guess what you described GW2 has. Damnit GW2!.. (In context for FFXIV I was hoping SE would revamp it's gameplay assisted roleplay, which I feel is something they're a bit weaker on, via systems that allowed players to better exhibit whatever they were investing into- like a Dragoon might unlock no fall damage or charged jumping passive in zones they've unlocked flying, etc).

I feel I have to try them out now, long ago I was like "mounts with personality could really cool!" (to which I was mostly told this isn't a racing game lol), but then GW2 came out with mounts that I hear from 'most' people as a really neat system. I usually point at GW2 for that (and I've watched the videos, it looks really fun), just didn't try it because I always felt worried about having too many online games biding for my time. But.. hearing they have a horizontal like system in place that isn't aggressively "get rekt cause you didn't play 24/7" is really nice.

I think the main thing that had me not go "oooh that game looks fantastic" is the graphics look alright. Not horrible, just say I think more recent WoW and definitely FFXIV look much better. Specifically FFXIV's combat effects are really pretty (in comparison to most MMOs to be honest).

But the systems I hear from them consistently sound appealing.

Guild Wars 2 has the best mount system of any MMORPG out there, it's true. You have several mounts in the game with tons of skins for customization (but nearly all of them are in the shop which is a bummer). Each mount offers different types of movement. Gryphon glides, drake is like a helicopter but needs to land for rest, raptor is a horizontal leaper, rabbit is a vertical leaper, jackal creates portals etc.

I think if GW2 sounds interesting to people they should try it out. The base game is free. You won't get masteries or elite specialization traitlines or mounts since those are all expansion features but you will have enough content to see if the game clicks with you. And if it does the expansion bundle is cheap. I will warn that expansions don't include a feature called "Living World". Think of Living World in GW2 as the update/"post MSQ" stories in FFXIV that take you from one expansion to the next. In GW2 you need to buy that separately. There is a lot in them like new maps, gear, etc that is worth having and they make the story make more sense. It is a weird system and one most people who play GW2 hope changes. The Living Worlds are free if you are active when they go live but they are a barrier to entry for new players. Since they are in the gem store you can farm gold and convert to gems to get them but it's still...obnoxious, frankly.