DSR was just solo healed

[Chopstix]

the thing im most impressed by is that they were able to survive everything w/o a shield healer (the 30 sec 10% mit is up for pretty much everything)

"healing" is actually ridiculously easy vast majority of the time, arguably all the time

so long as everyone lives the raidwide, topping ppl off is pretty much an afterthought (there r massive gaps in between party dmg, often it is not even necessary to heal until downtime where u can use GCD heals freely)

[ForteNightshade]

That's...kind of my point. If most groups aren't able to do it, then it isn't the general situation. If most groups were still failing or just clearing with 2 healers, than suggesting that it's undertuned would be saying none of those people should have been clearing (since tuning it high enough the groups that WERE doing it with single healers likely would mean too much healing for these other groups to handle). And, again, I was talking about progression and early runs, when people HADN'T outright memorized the entire fights so they could do them in their sleep.

You're missing the point though. If the fights are so laughably undertuned that no healers are required, it means bringing two gives them almost nothing to do. Hence why healers at all skill levels have been complaining how bored they've become. A lot of players at the EX level overestimate the difficulty of Primals or simply throw up a PF without even caring about the comp. It should also be noted a big reason for strict comp adherent actually has to do with FFlogs. In order to parse under the Standard category, you must bring a 2/2/4 comp. Therefore, two healers are required despite not being necessary. I can all but guarantee you if this were to change every static from the upper midcore and higher would be forcing one of their healers onto a Melee/Black Mage in Savage content. This whole tier has no strict two healer requirements.

Progression shouldn't be the only consideration here though. Warrior, for example, is arguably the best progression tank and worst at farming. Despite this, it's still fun and engaging to play. Healers lack this duality. They're only fun when you have no idea what's going on because once people know the damage sources, their gameplay is reduced to spamming a single button.

No, I'm talking about tuning. There is an issue that as people get better, healers have progressively less to do. But the contra position is that if groups simply aren't able to clear at all early on (when mistakes are being made while learning the fight), then people won't be clearing to get content on farm in the first place.

Which goes back to my previous statement: Healers are only fun and valuable when the group has no idea what they're doing. This is an inherently flawed design because once the initial prog period is over, they have no gameplay to fall back on. I have fun playing Summoner 20+ weeks into the Savage tier; I have fun on Dark Knight, Dragoon, Ninja and Warrior. Meanwhile, my Sage friend loathed re-clears every week because she was bored on her job. There was nothing engaging because all she did was spam Dosis III for 80% of the fight.

I honestly don't get this. I don't "feel good and engaging" on a Tank more than on a Healer. I find both feel good and engaging to play. /shrug

To each their own I suppose. Although, I do have to ask what groups or content are you partaking in because I find it hard to be engaged spamming Dosis III 500 times. I don't say that as an exaggeration either. I have literally spammed that one button 500 times in 24 man raids. Very riveting, I assure you.

Now the solution isn't necessarily to up the damage on every single fight, though I do believe it's far too low. If healers had a rotation of some sort to fall back on, they'd have something to do during downtime. That is the actual crux here. The devs want accessibility both in making the healing requirements absurdly low but also making the job's non-healing components barebones to not "overwhelm" new players. In other words, the content design and job design from a healer perspective are both insultingly undertuned. If you're new or inexperienced, you aren't going to notice. The moment you become even half-way decent at healing, it will stand out like a sore thumb how irrelevant your role actually is. Even the casual players finally got a taste of this with dungeons. Warrior, in particular, has repeatedly make a mockery of dungeon content. When I can solo every single Endwalker dungeon boss from 100% on Warrior, what use are you as a healer?

Tanks and DPS have never become irrelevant. Yes, we've solo tanked or "man-moded" EX Primals but that's usually with the power of ilvl creep. Come Endwalker, you could "man-mode" the first two floors of Savage with said ilvl creep. That's... not the same thing.

[glamazon]

I’m beginning to think thru will never give us an engaging dps rotation. I’ll play my dps and tanks. Paladin is basically a heart hybrid

[Amenara]

I always find this take...odd. Doing HydEx as a fresh 90, healing was absolutely needed and I had to go through about as many practice parties as I did Titania before clear. Some people just have REAL problems with some mechanics. (It's like P1S - Fourfold makes perfect sense to me, but several days of PFs proved to me that it WASN'T for a lot of the other people I was getting in parties with...)

Part of this comes with comparing prog vs farm. Farming, ZodEx only needs 1 healer. Prog, I was in groups that were dying to things left and right and even some that had trouble clearing the 4 spheres add phase. In the all class/no Job stone run I did, someone even remarked we were clearing the add phase better with no Job stones than many of the early learning parties were. So part of this is that the fights are tuned about right for at level gear, prog, and the first week or three of farming. It's after that, once everyone knows the fights and the mechanics and has better gear and weapons, that they feel undertuned. But go run Coils now (considered very difficult at the time) and they'll likely be far easier, even synced, than they were at level just from the ilevel scaling alone.

You answered my point when you started talking about doing the fight once most people knew the mechanics. Because of how scripted every single fight in the game is, when your group figures out the pattern healers become less and less needed, thus the fights become undertuned for healers. Tanks will always have the same things they deal with, regardless of how good the party gets at a fight because tank busters/swaps, boss positioning, etc will always be the same, DPS will always have to do mechanics while executing their rotations, healers though will have less healing to do since everyone gets better at the fight so they are doing less of their job because the mechanics don't change and damage output goes down as everyone gets better. That is where the flaw in the system is and why I think it is undertuned.

[Curisu]

Congratulations to the group who min-maxed the fight and every available cooldowns to make this possible.

I guess just a handful of player's worldwide are good and consistent enough to make a outstanding achievement like this possible.

It show's us what healer and mitigation is capable of.

Well, i will now queue into alliance raid and hopefully the healer's are good enough to keep the group alive.

[Hellebore_Ghrian]

Well, i will now queue into alliance raid and hopefully the healer's are good enough to keep the group alive.

If your group doesn't yolo in avoidable damage no matter the healer's level you'll stay alive.

[Sparkthor]

I always blaffed by two things : first it's how people love to push games to their limit, 2nd is how people love to take everything that can help their opinion in account.

Also people tend to be very strict on what should be. I don't think SE bothers if their content are done with non standard group. I could even bet they like this, because it show how imaginative et determined their community is.

And let's be serious a bit :
-Have Healer to have a somehow complex DPS rotation will not help the role.
-Have healer to be forced to spam Physicks/Cure/Benefic/Diagnosis all the time will not help the role neither.

I've always found FFXIV encounter are designed more like a puzzle challenge than like a brutal tests of skills. Considering this, having mechanics which need two healer or two tanks for the sake of healer and tank needed to soak them somehow is normal, fun and engaging.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I don't think SE bothers if their content are done with non standard group. I could even bet they like this, because it show how imaginative et determined their community is.

Not entirely true.

I.e. Ramuh (Extreme) would like to have a word with you, because they specifically nerf'ed old SMN's Titan fairly quickly when it was discovered you can omit tanks in that duty---It renders tanks unneeded if it was left just like that.

[KDSilver]

And let's be serious a bit :
-Have Healer to have a somehow complex DPS rotation will not help the role.

It will to a degree.
The biggest complain is : make downtime (no healing require) more engaging or at least less boring.
More dps option - a "rotation" will break this monotony

But indeed, it won't make us heal more or totally fix healer, that's because of the amount of self heal and mitigation the party can provide now and encounter design.

To be fairly honest...
Considering the dev stance on this topic... if they'd bring back spell like Aero III and Miasma, which is the very least... I would already be happy.

[ThorneDynasty]

-Have Healer to have a somehow complex DPS rotation will not help the role.

When you spend the vast majority of time DPSing, even when solo healing the most difficult content in the game, how on earth does this not help?