DSR was just solo healed

[Nizzi]

-Have Healer to have a somehow complex DPS rotation will not help the role.

Giving the healers a few more DPS buttons they had in the past or new ones to reduce 1-1-1-1 would help the role, actually. What's up with tanks who always insist that we shouldn't be able to have the fun they and DPS jobs are having? If you think this is so fun and engaging, why aren't YOU playing it instead of WAR?

[ThorneDynasty]

Congratulations to the group who min-maxed the fight and every available cooldowns to make this possible.

I guess just a handful of player's worldwide are good and consistent enough to make a outstanding achievement like this possible.

It show's us what healer and mitigation is capable of.

Well, i will now queue into alliance raid and hopefully the healer's are good enough to keep the group alive.

Again:

A) It's not a min-maxing issue as much as it's an issue of mechanic targeting logic arbitrarily forcing a 2 healer composition.

B) You aren't wiping alliance raids because the healer isn't good enough. You are wiping because the party keeps eating mechanics that are tuned to be instant kills after a vuln stack or two or right off the bat. No level of healer skill will help you, unless it's the healers who are running into all the avoidable damage.

C) Don't you think at the very highest possible difficulty just being very good still shouldn't be able to adjust missing half the HPS?

[ForteNightshade]

I've always found FFXIV encounter are designed more like a puzzle challenge than like a brutal tests of skills. Considering this, having mechanics which need two healer or two tanks for the sake of healer and tank needed to soak them somehow is normal, fun and engaging.

As a tank myself. No, it isn't. Having arbitrary mechanics that simply force my existence are neither fun nor engaging because I'm a gimped DPS for 95% of the fight except for that 5% where I have to tank something. Ironically, P4S, the last fight of this tier, is an example of unimaginative tank mechanics. The OT literally vokes to eat a single tank buster in the door boss phase. Otherwise, they may as well be a SAM with permanent weakness. You have no other role. Phase 2 at least has double tank busters.

Healers have it even worse because we'll get fights like E11S that force their existence but unlike tanks, they don't have actual DPS abilities to fall back on. You just get to spam one button and do a mechanic that exists solely to force two of your role in the party. It certainly isn't there to make you think—not unless you find untelegraphed healer stacks or targeted healer AoEs engaging.

[Sparkthor]

Giving the healers a few more DPS buttons they had in the past or new ones to reduce 1-1-1-1 would help the role, actually. What's up with tanks who always insist that we shouldn't be able to have the fun they and DPS jobs are having? If you think this is so fun and engaging, why aren't YOU playing it instead of WAR?

I love being personnaly attacked by someone who on her caracter sheet has only BLM leveled.

But to answer to your question, back in HW :
-The astrologian never got such dps tools you mention.
-The White Mege used to got a AOE dot, which was also used on single target.
-The Schoolar was a summoner with a fairy who healed.

Also, back in HW, you've got cleric stance, which prevent you to heal or to deal dommage depend if it was on or off. I think this skill was very intimidating for newbies (at least it was for me), so i spend most of my time standing still (back in time i didn't do ex but only Mach series raid as healer) because i feared something would happen and i would not be able to do something (you can tell i was a newbie).

Today i mostly tank and DPS because I got friends who enjoy more healing as me in HL content, and also because most of the time, in PF, tanks are more missing than healers. But it doesn't change the fact I enjoy learning to have less GCD heal to my content as healer (Schoolar mostly).

As a tank myself. No, it isn't. Having arbitrary mechanics that simply force my existence are neither fun nor engaging because I'm a gimped DPS for 95% of the fight except for that 5% where I have to tank something.

It's your point, i got mine, we disagree on. I don't think one of us is more right than the other.

[Hellebore_Ghrian]

But to answer to your question, back in HW :
-The astrologian never got such dps tools you mention.
-The White Mege used to got a AOE dot, which was also used on single target.
-The Schoolar was a summoner with a fairy who healed.

Also, back in HW, you've got cleric stance, which prevent you to heal or to deal dommage depend if it was on or off. I think this skill was very intimidating for newbies (at least it was for me), so i spend most of my time standing still (back in time i didn't do ex but only Mach series raid as healer) because i feared something would happen and i would not be able to do something (you can tell i was a newbie).

Dat non-sense.

Back in HW healers had something to heal to begin with and other roles didn't heal on their behalf as much as today. Back in HW encounter had unavoidable damage.

Or maybe can you show us how the last 24-ppl raid and ones from HW in their time are the same in the healing side ?

[Nizzi]

I love being personnaly attacked by someone who on her caracter sheet has only BLM leveled.

No, I'm a BLM only Lalafell. This means Yoshida listens to me. It's how this game works. /s

But to answer to your question, back in HW :
-The astrologian never got such dps tools you mention.
-The White Mege used to got a AOE dot, which was also used on single target.
-The Schoolar was a summoner with a fairy who healed.

Also, back in HW, you've got cleric stance, which prevent you to heal or to deal dommage depend if it was on or off. I think this skill was very intimidating for newbies (at least it was for me), so i spend most of my time standing still (back in time i didn't do ex but only Mach series raid as healer) because i feared something would happen and i would not be able to do something (you can tell i was a newbie).

I'm really not sure why you decided to write the Heavensward recap for me when it has nothing to do with what I posted. I clearly wrote "a few more DPS buttons they had in the past or new ones to reduce 1-1-1-1 would help the role" and they even gave AST back SB Minor Arcana in EW, which personally I find fun to use even if Minor Arcana and Crown Play should be one button. WHM getting Aero III back would be good. SCH getting Miasma and Bane back would be great.

There's no excuse for these jobs all having the exact same DPS 1111 spam when previously they did not. Nobody wants hyper complex rotations. We want to heal, but they aren't designing the game for that and have told us they aren't increasing healing requirements, so all we have to do is spam 1 over and over. It isn't fun and there's no variation in the entire role for this, so at the least giving a few more varied DPS buttons between the healers will allow these jobs to feel unique and varied and not all like the exact same thing. It's boring and there's not a single job on the role that can escape this.

I've said many times on these forums if they add Miasma back (on a different timer from Bio) and Bane, I will stop posting here forever. I enjoy healing. Stop making my "reward" for getting better NOT healing and pressing Broil more. I do NOT hate healing, but I HATE Broil spam.

[Sparkthor]

Dat non-sense.

Back in HW healers had something to heal to begin with and other roles didn't heal on their behalf as much as today. Back in HW encounter had unavoidable damage.

Or maybe can you show us how the last 24-ppl raid and ones from HW in their time are the same in the healing side ?

I don't have record, FFLOGS do but you need to pay a bit to get access to full archived log, with the detail of all casts. It would be nice to have them but I don't used fflogs this often to make a good usage of it.

But as far as I can remember, most alliance raid group go with one healer stuck with Cleric Stance on (mostly schoolars) for the whole raid.

But let's look at some stats, according to FFLOGS :
-The speedest kill of Primo Alexander in patch 3.5.8b got a total HPS from both healers of 4 264 HPS. Back In HW, Tank (but WAR) got ~36k HP and dps ~26k HP. So HPS was roughtly 16% of a dps max HP
-The speedest kill of Hesperos 2 got a total HPS from both healers of 11807 HPS. Dps got ~60k maxHP so HPS is roughtly 20% of a dps max HP.

-> I don't think we can say where were more things to heal back in HW. But true, tanks got more tools, and even with them, healers still roughly heal for same % of HP.

[Hellebore_Ghrian]

Again, this is wrong, because we have already made the comparison in another thread. (Here, and not only my post others example are on the same page)

Today, to get the same level of hps or to heal the same % of hp if you want, healers have to use less than half the healing actions and they spam a lot more a unique dps spell compared to before.

This is already true when comparing P1S and E1S, and it gets worse the older the content gets.

That matter isn't the % of hp, or the hps, it's the number of healing action you actually use. That number shows that you're engaged in healing. And that number constantly decreases year after year.

When you don't use healing action what remain ? 1 spell 1 dot, 90% of the time. Even in the hardest content of the game while solo healing, that period where you only use 1 spell 1 dot isn't less than 50%.

[Liam_Harper]

The amount of mental gymnastics people go through to try and justify spamming a single button for most of a fight is baffling...

How is it hard to understand that having a few different buttons to press is more fun than spamming 1? Imagine if they turned Ninja into having only a reworked Spinning Edge and Death Blossom as a GCD. You could jump through hoops and argue "but it still has lots of oGCD's and high apm and melee uptime and you have to get your Ninjitsu combinations right, it's engaging!" ...but let's be real, it'd suck compared to the real thing.

Healers right now are that hypothetical 1 GCD NIN. We want the real thing.

[Silver-Strider]

Also people tend to be very strict on what should be. I don't think SE bothers if their content are done with non standard group. I could even bet they like this, because it show how imaginative et determined their community is.

As already stated, Ramuh extreme originally could be done without Tanks because SMN's Titan summon was able to Tank the boss. This was nerfed so that Tanks would be required. So SE absolutely do care when non-standard groups clear content, UNLESS it involves healers, then they couldn't care less.

And let's be serious a bit :
-Have Healer to have a somehow complex DPS rotation will not help the role.
-Have healer to be forced to spam Physicks/Cure/Benefic/Diagnosis all the time will not help the role neither.

I fail to see how these wouldn't help the role be more engaging. Random damage here and there, DoTs/Debuffs that are actually punishing enough to warrant using Esuna, more support oriented DPS options like a DoT that slows enemies so they attack less often or a DoT that heals party members that attack the affected target would all make the role more interesting to play.

I've always found FFXIV encounter are designed more like a puzzle challenge than like a brutal tests of skills. Considering this, having mechanics which need two healer or two tanks for the sake of healer and tank needed to soak them somehow is normal, fun and engaging.

Mechanics have devolved from "I need to shield these 2 people that got targeted with prey or they will die while also making sure the Tank has enough health for the the upcoming Tank Buster" to "Stand in this spot" or "Heal everyone to full". That's literally all they are now. I haven't found a single healer mechanic post HW that actually required anything more from me than the bare minimum of thought. Most Heal checks in Savage raids are literally at the tail end of a fight and only matter in prog. Once the fight is learned, it's one of the 1st mechanics that ends up getting skipped almost entirely because the boss is already at death's doorstep by the time they even start the 1st cast of it, if even that. When was the last time we had a healer check that required using Esuna to purge a debuff but only after another mechanic went off? How about mechanics that required shielding party members or it applied a debuff on them, which is no longer viable only because they removed on demand shields from WHM and AST? There aren't any engaging Healer mechanics anymore and there hasn't been in a long time.