What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Ala Mhigo was invaded and the war restarted because a band of terrorists put on Eorzean Alliance uniforms and attacked a Garlean outpost, following it up with summoning Shinryu. The Eorzean Alliance saw no way out of it other than to continue and besides, at this point all of Eorzea had spent the past 15 years being threatened by Garlemald and had survived 3 failed invasion attempts with Garlean soldiers still to this day present in Eorzean territory. Ala Mhigo wasn't a central part of Garlean territory and it was a 1500 year old sovereign state that wasn't even on Ilsabard, was not a target of Garlean revanchism, and had absolutely no history with the Garlean people at all.

Varis purged a dissenting political party because they said "maybe we shouldn't conquer and destroy people who had nothing to do with our original homeland". When they started gathering together with arms because he was killing them, he gassed them. Part of the point of that plotline, besides reintroducing the gas to people who didn't do SB sidequests, was to show that he's not a good person even to his own people. The Garleans had nothing to do with Aldenard and Othard and a sizeable chunk of the Garlean population agreed with that but Varis destroyed them so that he could continue his insane effort to take over the world and trigger Calamity after Calamity, the first of which ended up destroying Garlemald anyway in 8UC.

Between the civil war Varis led trying to take the throne that caused more chaos than Emet-Selch had hoped and his purge of the Populares, the Garleans probably ended up killing more of their own than any single foreign army had caused. Then his son, who by Varis' own admission had no business being in line for the throne, repossessed his body and ended up killing him and completely obliterated the rest of the country.

What a legacy.

I dont really need the history lesson. I understand the story. Again though, he accomplished something not even most of the other antagonists have accomplished. Also im sorry if i tend to sympathize more with the nation that was manipulated and had no savior to descend unto them and solve their every problem.

The problem with the "it's just fiction" justification is that it can be applied to just about every argument in the story, and runs the risk of rendering all discussion rather pointless. The world of FFXIV shares our morality (or thereabouts) and beliefs, and I'd rather the game acknowledge and deal with questionable scenarios when they arise rather than brushing off certain acts whilst condemning others because "it makes for a cool fantasy story."



I'll give you Sil'dih, though we are talking about a city state that existed hundreds of years ago and has little to do with Ul'dah in the present. But you're grossly exaggerating the reality of the other city states in an attempt to justify what the Garleans did. I can't really take you seriously when you're trying to make out the Eorzean Alliance are "just as bad" when Garlemald has continually sought the conquest and subjugation of other nations for its own glory and brought the racism, rape, genocide and slavery you mentioned to the countless provinces under its control.

Varis was dealt a rough hand when it came to his family, for sure, but after a certain point it cannot be used to justify the choices he made.

Okay and...did Limsa not seek the conquest of the Kobolds' land? Did uldah not seek to destroy Sildih? Whether these happened in the past is a non-issue. again, even today, Slavery is allowed in uldah. Racism and rape is rampant in both gridania and limsa. these arent problems only caused or only majorly done in purely garlemald territories. Am i supposed to just turn a blind eye to this because the writing is depicting all of the protagonists must be amazing and perfect and acknowledge their faults? Like...its the same as what i said above. I can only imagine what the city states would be like if the WoL hadnt showed up...Sorry if i dont feel sympathy for the places that had a demi-god figure show up to help them all and treat their woes while the other people had to work with what they had.

[Lunaxia]

Ala Mhigo [...]

Sometimes I fancy myself knowledgable about FFXIV lore, and then something like this comes along and puts me to shame. I really wish they'd make more of the dedicated world-building visible in the game. Perhaps with this new Codex we have now? I really enjoyed the Field Notes from Bozja, and I think the rest of the game could more than benefit from something similar.

Okay and...did Limsa not seek the conquest of the Kobolds' land? Did uldah not seek to destroy Sildih? Whether these happened in the past is a non-issue. again, even today, Slavery is allowed in uldah. Racism and rape is rampant in both gridania and limsa. these arent problems only caused or only majorly done in purely garlemald territories. Am i supposed to just turn a blind eye to this because the writing is depicting all of the protagonists must be amazing and perfect and acknowledge their faults? Like...its the same as what i said above. I can only imagine what the city states would be like if the WoL hadnt showed up...Sorry if i dont feel sympathy for the places that had a demi-god figure show up to help them all and treat their woes while the other people had to work with what they had.

It kind of is a non-issue because the people responsible for those things are no longer here today, so they're not really relevant. I feel we're in a bit of a circular argument where you're saying "look what happens in Eorzea!" and I'm answering that whatever may be happening there has been perpetuated by Garlemald on a much wider, more deliberate and more devastating scale, to which you're responding "but the Eorzeans do it too!" No one is claiming the city states are perfect; their problems have featured prominently in the storyline, and not without some condemnation from the Scions themselves. But this argument of Garlemald being backed into a corner and "making do with what they had" to justify atrocities they committed just doesn't work, and it hasn't done since they progressed from a nation seeking survival to a nation devoted to conquest.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Sometimes I fancy myself knowledgable about FFXIV lore, and then something like this comes along and puts me to shame. I really wish they'd make more of the dedicated world-building visible in the game. Perhaps with this new Codex we have now? I really enjoyed the Field Notes from Bozja, and I think the rest of the game could more than benefit from something similar.



It kind of is a non-issue because the people responsible for those things are no longer here today, so they're not really relevant. I feel we're in a bit of a circular argument where you're saying "look what happens in Eorzea!" and I'm answering that whatever may be happening there has been perpetuated by Garlemald on a much wider, more deliberate and more devastating scale, to which you're responding "but the Eorzeans do it too!" No one is claiming the city states are perfect; their problems have featured prominently in the storyline, and not without some condemnation from the Scions themselves. But this argument of Garlemald being backed into a corner and "making do with what they had" to justify atrocities they committed just doesn't work, and it hasn't done since they progressed from a nation seeking survival to a nation devoted to conquest.

Yes, and again, its easy to remedy those situations when you literally have a demi-god character who helps solve all of your problems.Whereas with Garlemald they were raised where you either grow strong and defend yourself or someone will come and take everything you hold dear. The city states dont have to worry about that anymore because guess what? anyone who disagrees with them points us at them and asks us to kill them. In the end though i guess it all comes back to Venat. Lets all thank her for creating the wonderful world of war,rape,and illness. Because its just so much better than the unsundered world.

[CrownySuccubus]

Yes, and again, its easy to remedy those situations when you literally have a demi-god character who helps solve all of your problems.Whereas with Garlemald they were raised where you either grow strong and defend yourself or someone will come and take everything you hold dear. The city states dont have to worry about that anymore because guess what? anyone who disagrees with them points us at them and asks us to kill them..

So then I guess in the end, Garlemald got exactly what they wanted. You can't advocate a "live by the sword, die by the sword" philosophy and then cry foul when it's YOU that does the dying. Garlemald did what they wanted to do: wage war and rule by strength at all costs, even against their fellow Garleans.

Yeah, Garlemald didn't have the unstoppable super soldier to save the day, but not for lack of trying. Hell, Zenos was actually better than the WOL for most of the plot. But...whoops it turned out that he cared more about war than ruling, too.

[Lunaxia]

Perhaps because one is more intelligent and less preachy than the other? Larsa's ultimate goal was peace. Not regime change. Instead of toppling enemy leaders left and right he worked together with people like Princess Ashe, both of which later became leaders of their respective nations. It made for a far more palatable story than having nation after nation bend over backwards in order to conform to real world ideals - for which Alphinaud is the mouthpiece.

What enemy leaders has he toppled and regime changes is he supposed to have enforced? Alphinaud has only ever acted as a diplomat between nations/ peoples similarly in the name of peace. They're near enough the same sort of character to me so I'm honestly struggling to understand it.

Yes, and again, its easy to remedy those situations when you literally have a demi-god character who helps solve all of your problems.Whereas with Garlemald they were raised where you either grow strong and defend yourself or someone will come and take everything you hold dear. The city states dont have to worry about that anymore because guess what? anyone who disagrees with them points us at them and asks us to kill them. In the end though i guess it all comes back to Venat. Lets all thank her for creating the wonderful world of war,rape,and illness. Because its just so much better than the unsundered world.

I mean, "what state would the world be in without the WoL?" is a valid and interesting subject to discuss, but that doesn't change the fact that Garlemald would still be doing those things. You can't equate war crimes with societal flaws regardless of whether the WoL has influenced the city states towards better paths or not.

[KizuyaKatogami]

What enemy leaders has he toppled and regime changes is he supposed to have enforced? Alphinaud has only ever acted as a diplomat between nations/ peoples similarly in the name of peace. They're near enough the same sort of character to me so I'm honestly struggling to understand it.



I mean, "what state would the world be in without the WoL?" is a valid and interesting subject to discuss, but that doesn't change the fact that Garlemald would still be doing those things. You can't equate war crimes with societal flaws regardless of whether the WoL has influenced the city states towards better paths or not.

I mean, i can and i did. In the end everywhere sucks in 14. It's just who got lucky to have the super speshul character on their side. In the end it was the city states. The garleans got the short end of the stick and were manipulated from the start. Again, blame Venat not them.

[MikkoAkure]

So then I guess in the end, Garlemald got exactly what they wanted. You can't advocate a "live by the sword, die by the sword" philosophy and then cry foul when it's YOU that does the dying. Garlemald did what they wanted to do: wage war and rule by strength at all costs, even against their fellow Garleans.

Yeah, Garlemald didn't have the unstoppable super soldier to save the day, but not for lack of trying. Hell, Zenos was actually better than the WOL for most of the plot. But...whoops it turned out that he cared more about war than ruling, too.

Looking back on things, up until the end, the Garleans always had someone as strong or stronger than the WoL but still lost.

Nael was backed by a demi-god and beat us down in cutscenes until we ended up defeating her but she still succeeded in bringing her god to life and destroyed a whole continent.

Gaius was pretty evenly matched with the WoL, beat the crap out of the Scions in his 1.0 introduction cutscene, and it took Hydaelyn wasting almost all of her energy she had left in order for us to beat him. Under Solus, he was the Garlean's WoL equivalent who conquered multiple city-states and brutally put down the first rebellion in Rabanastre.

Zenos was much stronger than the WoL and had multiple opportunities to kill us but didn't because he's an insane person. Under Varis, he was also the Empire's fix-it guy like the WoL and went to Ala Mhigo and Doma to put down rebellions much like Gaius. If he was actually competent, didn't kill his own officers, didn't purposefully create rebellions in order to fight strong people, killed us when he had the chance, and wasn't an Ascian puppet like his predecessors, we would have had a different story.


Garlemald didn't lack for extremely strong individuals. They just didn't have the protagonist on their side and were written to be the bad guys.


Our character and the players' first experience with the Garlean Empire is with the Garlean-generated Calamity and multiple invasions as well as killing a bunch of our NPC friends. Being threatened with death the whole game, having no interaction at all with normal Garleans besides their soldiers who are doing the aforementioned death threatening, and siding with the shadowy, scheming ghosts who laugh maniacally and talk about resurrecting their dark god while also teaching antagonistic tribes to summon their own gods which gave the Garleans "reason" to invade in the first place doesn't exactly make one want to help you. It's difficult to sympathize with a bully no matter how tragic their backstory is and especially less so when that tragic backstory happened 600 years ago.

But WoL and the Eorzean Alliance still came in and decided to help the Garlean survivors out of the destruction of their own making after they were defanged and weren't in a position to do anything anymore.