What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Theodric]

Varis was dealt a rough hand when it came to his family, for sure, but after a certain point it cannot be used to justify the choices he made.

The very same argument used to declare that the Ascians should have just rolled over and allowed Venat to wipe out their civilisation in its entirely, including their entire race as well as all knowledge of their existence. With such horrific stakes in play and the alternative being the loss of absolutely everything one cares about, I daresay justifications can be found.

Sure, it sucks for the people who are screwed over in the process but if two forces are put in a position where only one can emerge victorious then I'd expect both sides to do everything possible in order to defend their loved ones.

[CrownySuccubus]

snip

Just gonna say that I agree with you 100%, and that's pretty much what I said in another thread.

"Everyone else has also done bad things" isn't a catch-all justification that each side is right. Especially when the entire point of FFXIV as a story is that the Eorzean city-states are trying to make up for the wrongs they've done, which is certainly NOT the case for Garlemald at present. Even if we were to take this argument completely at face value, though, Garlemald is still worse. They have done every single bad thing that the individual city states have done (except maybe primal summoning), but have also done more atrocities aside from that. There is also a matter of scale -- as bad as Gridania's racism may be, Garlemald has still basically spread a campaign of cultural genocide across multiple continents. You might be able to pass judgment on Uldah for wiping out an entire city, but bringing the same judgment upon Garlemald brings up the immediate question "Which one?".

It's not being free of the Ascians that allows Garlemald to heal, though. It's being free of any form of government whatsoever. This is evident from the actions of the Legates in EW; even with the Empire in such a shattered state, the military-based government was still operating under the core value of war. Garlemald was, first and foremost, a military dictatorship that respected only martial strength; most other industries and facets of its society were likewise judged by how useful they were to their military operations. This absolute faith in military might also determined who ruled the country as general-in-chief (Solus and Varis both earned their crowns through military might, and part of the reason the country fell is because the Legates went to war with each other over a power vacuum).

Even being reduced to a crippled, hopelessly underpowered military wasn't enough to deter most of Garlemald from their ways -- the whole point of the Anima primal was that the people were sure that their warrior king Varis was still alive and would unite the military, punish the traitors, drive out the foreign occupiers, and restore the Empire's hold on Eitherys. It's not until Anima is dead, their Legates have all surrendered or killed themselves, and there is absolutely zero hope of restoring the Empire to what it was that the surviving Garlean populace takes any steps in an alternate direction..

[KizuyaKatogami]

Ala Mhigo was invaded and the war restarted because a band of terrorists put on Eorzean Alliance uniforms and attacked a Garlean outpost, following it up with summoning Shinryu. The Eorzean Alliance saw no way out of it other than to continue and besides, at this point all of Eorzea had spent the past 15 years being threatened by Garlemald and had survived 3 failed invasion attempts with Garlean soldiers still to this day present in Eorzean territory. Ala Mhigo wasn't a central part of Garlean territory and it was a 1500 year old sovereign state that wasn't even on Ilsabard, was not a target of Garlean revanchism, and had absolutely no history with the Garlean people at all.

Varis purged a dissenting political party because they said "maybe we shouldn't conquer and destroy people who had nothing to do with our original homeland". When they started gathering together with arms because he was killing them, he gassed them. Part of the point of that plotline, besides reintroducing the gas to people who didn't do SB sidequests, was to show that he's not a good person even to his own people. The Garleans had nothing to do with Aldenard and Othard and a sizeable chunk of the Garlean population agreed with that but Varis destroyed them so that he could continue his insane effort to take over the world and trigger Calamity after Calamity, the first of which ended up destroying Garlemald anyway in 8UC.

Between the civil war Varis led trying to take the throne that caused more chaos than Emet-Selch had hoped and his purge of the Populares, the Garleans probably ended up killing more of their own than any single foreign army had caused. Then his son, who by Varis' own admission had no business being in line for the throne, repossessed his body and ended up killing him and completely obliterated the rest of the country.

What a legacy.

I dont really need the history lesson. I understand the story. Again though, he accomplished something not even most of the other antagonists have accomplished. Also im sorry if i tend to sympathize more with the nation that was manipulated and had no savior to descend unto them and solve their every problem.

The problem with the "it's just fiction" justification is that it can be applied to just about every argument in the story, and runs the risk of rendering all discussion rather pointless. The world of FFXIV shares our morality (or thereabouts) and beliefs, and I'd rather the game acknowledge and deal with questionable scenarios when they arise rather than brushing off certain acts whilst condemning others because "it makes for a cool fantasy story."



I'll give you Sil'dih, though we are talking about a city state that existed hundreds of years ago and has little to do with Ul'dah in the present. But you're grossly exaggerating the reality of the other city states in an attempt to justify what the Garleans did. I can't really take you seriously when you're trying to make out the Eorzean Alliance are "just as bad" when Garlemald has continually sought the conquest and subjugation of other nations for its own glory and brought the racism, rape, genocide and slavery you mentioned to the countless provinces under its control.

Varis was dealt a rough hand when it came to his family, for sure, but after a certain point it cannot be used to justify the choices he made.

Okay and...did Limsa not seek the conquest of the Kobolds' land? Did uldah not seek to destroy Sildih? Whether these happened in the past is a non-issue. again, even today, Slavery is allowed in uldah. Racism and rape is rampant in both gridania and limsa. these arent problems only caused or only majorly done in purely garlemald territories. Am i supposed to just turn a blind eye to this because the writing is depicting all of the protagonists must be amazing and perfect and acknowledge their faults? Like...its the same as what i said above. I can only imagine what the city states would be like if the WoL hadnt showed up...Sorry if i dont feel sympathy for the places that had a demi-god figure show up to help them all and treat their woes while the other people had to work with what they had.

[tokinokanatae]

The very same argument used to declare that the Ascians should have just rolled over and allowed Venat to wipe out their civilisation in its entirely, including their entire race as well as all knowledge of their existence. With such horrific stakes in play and the alternative being the loss of absolutely everything one cares about, I daresay justifications can be found.

This comparison doesn't make sense as Eorzea wouldn't have been inclined to attack Garlemald if Garlemald hadn't attacked them. Garlemald didn't need to subdue Erozea in order to exist, they are not made of of shattered remnants of catboys and femroes that Erozea is trying to glue together in order to recreate their country. Once ceruleum was "discovered" by Solus, they had the means to do more than eke out a miserable existence for themselves in an inhospitable place without going to war. You're comparing apples to butterscotch pie.

[Lauront]

The problem with the "it's just fiction" justification is that it can be applied to just about every argument in the story, and runs the risk of rendering all discussion rather pointless. The world of FFXIV shares our morality (or thereabouts) and beliefs, and I'd rather the game acknowledge and deal with questionable scenarios when they arise rather than brushing off certain acts whilst condemning others because "it makes for a cool fantasy story."

It certainly features a distillation of such views, as voiced through the protagonists, whatever the practical application of that, including consistency in this, ends up being. I think this comes down to differing preferences in world construction. I enjoy games like the Witcher 3 for their rather thorough-going depictions of such regimes, both in their good and bad aspects, which is beyond the scope of this game and, if I am frank, seems unlikely to be a significant focus of its future plotlines, especially with the Ivalice stuff seemingly drawing to a close. I will probably look to other MMOs (maybe Ashes of Creation, where it's a major feature) for such things, but it remains my hope that they do take on board and embed feedback for how they dealt with the ancients when considering ways to keep the future plot interesting for what it does choose to make its focus, which is a little nebulous right now.

The failings in FFXIV's worldbuilding is what is also serving to drive me full force into the arms of FFXVI, which has a far more balanced platter of nations. A duchy, two kingdoms, one holy theocratic empire, and one republic - important to note because the more republics you have the less unique they become. In the monarchies or "dictatorships" as they've been decried at least you have the chance to get a more colorful cast of characters to root for. Am I really supposed to be excited about a senate or parliament whose members are never on screen? Multiplied by 3 in the case of FFXIV? Give me a break.

I am keen to see if it will live up to expectations with Yoshida unshackled by a legacy plot and the pressures which exist upon XIV's writers. Certainly, as described, it has piqued my interest, and I would hope as a single player title designed with a vision for it at the outset that it will feature better narrative cohesion than a live service MMO where the plot had to be chopped and changed part ways through...

[Lunaxia]

I'd rather trust a Larsa...

Instead we get regime change driven by a 16 year old elf

The two characters are practically mirror images of each other, only Larsa is twelve. I don't understand your preoccupation with one and dismissiveness towards another.

I agree the previous senate shouldn't be responsible for the new Garlemald either - by all accounts what we've heard about them is little better than what we've seen so far from its rulers - but I don't really have an answer to your claim that Garlemald without a monarchy is automatically boring. To each their own, I suppose? I hope XVI gives you what you're looking for.

snip

The Ascians had lost their people and their world. The Garleans, on the other hand, acted out of little more than revenge, spite and arrogance. They had nothing to gain by conquest save more power and resources. They're not comparable.

snip

Very well-said.

[Theodric]

It certainly features a distillation of it as voiced through the protagonists. I think this comes down to differing preferences in world construction. I enjoy games like the Witcher 3 for their rather thorough-going depictions of such regimes, both in their good and bad aspects, which is beyond the scope of this game and, if I am frank, seems unlikely to be a significant focus of its future plotlines. I will probably look to other MMOs (maybe Ashes of Creation, where it's a major feature) for such things, but it remains my hope that they do take on board and embed feedback for how they dealt with the ancients when considering ways to keep the future plot interesting for what it does choose to make its focus, which is a little nebulous right now.

Yep. It's just a shame that the development team weren't open and honest sooner about their intent. I certainly would not have invested in this game beyond Heavensward if I knew it was going to hastily wrap up long running storylines in a very awkward and contrived manner.

Not every in-game nation or race (playable or otherwise) needs to appeal to everybody either. I didn't care for orcs, tauren or trolls back when I played WoW but I didn't have an issue with their existence for those who did like them.

Allow variety to exist and 'comfort characters' will not be so heavily criticised by virtue of a broader range of tastes being catered to.

[Kozh]

Once ceruleum was "discovered" by Solus, they had the means to do more than eke out a miserable existence for themselves in an inhospitable place without going to war. You're comparing apples to butterscotch pie.

Even if Garlemald went into industrial route by selling ceruleum and magitek advancement, they would still lives in inhospitable place. The other nations won't magically gave them a piece of land for them to live in.

And I won't be 100% sure eorzea won't go into conqueror mode, considering Ala mhigo did try that just few years ago. Eorzea was locked into defensive mode only because their war with Garlemald.

[Lunaxia]

Ala Mhigo [...]

Sometimes I fancy myself knowledgable about FFXIV lore, and then something like this comes along and puts me to shame. I really wish they'd make more of the dedicated world-building visible in the game. Perhaps with this new Codex we have now? I really enjoyed the Field Notes from Bozja, and I think the rest of the game could more than benefit from something similar.

Okay and...did Limsa not seek the conquest of the Kobolds' land? Did uldah not seek to destroy Sildih? Whether these happened in the past is a non-issue. again, even today, Slavery is allowed in uldah. Racism and rape is rampant in both gridania and limsa. these arent problems only caused or only majorly done in purely garlemald territories. Am i supposed to just turn a blind eye to this because the writing is depicting all of the protagonists must be amazing and perfect and acknowledge their faults? Like...its the same as what i said above. I can only imagine what the city states would be like if the WoL hadnt showed up...Sorry if i dont feel sympathy for the places that had a demi-god figure show up to help them all and treat their woes while the other people had to work with what they had.

It kind of is a non-issue because the people responsible for those things are no longer here today, so they're not really relevant. I feel we're in a bit of a circular argument where you're saying "look what happens in Eorzea!" and I'm answering that whatever may be happening there has been perpetuated by Garlemald on a much wider, more deliberate and more devastating scale, to which you're responding "but the Eorzeans do it too!" No one is claiming the city states are perfect; their problems have featured prominently in the storyline, and not without some condemnation from the Scions themselves. But this argument of Garlemald being backed into a corner and "making do with what they had" to justify atrocities they committed just doesn't work, and it hasn't done since they progressed from a nation seeking survival to a nation devoted to conquest.

[CrownySuccubus]

Even if Garlemald went into industrial route by selling ceruleum and magitek advancement, they would still lives in inhospitable place. The other nations won't magically gave them a piece of land for them to live in.

I don't think that was the point being made. The point is that, whatever justifiable reasons the founding Garleans had for their Empire, those reasons were gone the moment Garlemald started invading other continents and immediately destroying the culture and way of life of the people there. History is FULL of tyrannical, genocidal empires who started what they were doing because other nations backed them into a corner. WW2 Germany, Gulf Era Iraq, Imperial Japan, and others to name a few.