Can we delete Seraph, Dissipation, Excog and Sacred Soil? Some ideas on top of it...

[QooEr]

Don’t understand this complex idea people keep mentioning aren’t all dps classes more complex than every healer? Aren’t tanks more complex than every healer? So why do those jobs get engaging rotations with synergistic kits while we get nothing like that.

because supposedly healing once or twice a minute occupies your entire head space

[Renathras]

not everyone is going to agree with you on everything

And I'm not asking people to. My position itself is the compromise position. The hard-line simple position would be "ALL FOUR remain simple, end of story!" (which, let's be honest, is probably the Dev position right now anyway). That's the extreme position on the simple side. Asking for 1 our of 4 and giving 3 out of 4 to the complex side of things is hardly a hard-line position.

And my issue isn't people not agreeing with me. My issue is people arguing a position ignoring facts and anything and everything I'm saying. If you couldn't tell reading that post, I'm replying to a person who says the opposite of 3/1 is 0/4. And even if it was, I already made an argument for why that position, 0 simple 4 complex, is bad - several times - anyway. Including, I think, in the post they replied to.

I'm frustrated with people having a position and being unable to defend it, instead only attacking the hard-line position they oppose, which is (a) a position I haven't argued for to begin with (thus they're ignoring/talking over my argument/making a caricature or straw man of it) and (b) in the very post they've replied to, implying they didn't bother to actually even read my argument to begin with, which explains why they don't understand where I already addressed it.

EDIT:


So please, don't make a caricature here, either: I'm not saying people aren't being rational because they disagree with me. I'm saying they're not being rational because they aren't addressing arguments presented and are making fallacious (straw man is a logical fallacy) arguments in lieu of actual ones.

I SUSPECT it's because there really isn't a great argument for not leaving ONE healer as simple. Or not a particular good one other than "Well...I don't think any should be THAT simple", which is a subjective position with little basis. Your own argument seems to be that you believe Jobs should allow depth to grow in and master, but current healers already DO this - learning your kit and becoming familiar with your abilities allows you to maximize GCD use on attacks by leveraging your oGCD heals (and in the case of WHM, Lilies). Growth already DOES exist in the present model. And having 3 healers more complex allows people that strive for and enjoy that kind of game play multiple options. And if you're comparing WHM to the past; at most, it has ever had 2 more DoTs, with one being mainly for AOE (and yes, I would like Aero 3 back, personally), but we also didn't have Lilies/Misery back then, either, or half our oGCD healing kit. Moreover, even if we discount that, that's a subjective position - you've not given a great reason for WHY it's needed, only your belief that it IS needed. Moreover, with THREE OTHER OPTIONS that do allow that, you've not given a reason why ONE that does not is a negative.

How to add to WHM? Add a charge to Assize, add a trait to Glare/Holy or Lily spenders (either is fine by me) that reduces Assize's CD by X seconds (allowing you to "build up" faster and rewarding damage with a nice burst of healing/damage) or, alternatively, to build up additional Blood Lily charges (that's more complex since it's a 1-2-3 charge system and you'd probably want a lot more gradient there for Glare to contribute), have Presence of Mind OR Thin Air trigger "High Glare/High Holy" to cast when used (think WAR with Infuriate + Fell Cleave/Orogeny turning them into the Chaos versions), and add "Afflatus X" (Afflatus Sanctuary or Afflatus Exuberance) Lily ability that gives a shield or damage mitigation (Sanctuary) or a Lily spender version of Medica 2, possibly with a 30 sec or 60 sec CD (like how Indom/Ixo have a 30 sec CD in addition to their resource cost). Probably the Medica 2 one and they can add the shield/damage mitigation one in 8.0. And, obviously, Dia 2. I honestly think Plenary should be reworked since it's kind of a meh spell right now. Something like "gives 2 charges, lasts 10 seconds" and the charges could be what we use for High Glare/Holy/Cure (Cure IV?). I'm generally iffy about making a healing resource compete with offensive power, but in this case...no one uses Plenary anyway as it is, so why not get it to flex its muscles and pull double duty? If we don't like Assize/Misery more often, then we could have Glare/Holy casts lower the CD on Plenary by 5 sec and make it work that way instead.

Bam! I've given you several new abilities for WHM to learn as they level to give that leveling experience, I've given you a new Lily spender to double down on that Job identity of being a "GCD healer...that uses Lilies to be DPS neutral instead of punished" by giving you some more Lily options, and made a new single and AOE cast spell that interacts with their kit to make it feel less stale. And all of the above - even if we did ALL of it at once - wouldn't really change their rotation much. You might be using Assize a bit more often and you would get more bang with the High spells out of using Thin Air/Presence of Mind/Plenary Indulgence (whichever we wanted to tie it to), and the second charge on Assize would give burst options as well as allow the WHM to hold onto 1 charge for upcoming mechanics, thus allowing it to be used more strategically.

This gives it a bit of nuance (roughly like WAR among Tanks), while maintaining almost entirely the present playstyle and general hotbar economy - the only new addition outright would be the new Afflatus spell.

Though, honestly, they tend to take away abilities before giving ones these days. And another option is simply having abilities upgrade to new forms (like Stone/Glare already does)

But this doesn't change the fact that if we have 3 healers that have high complexity (which is the argument), or 2 high and 1 medium (creating a spectrum), it's fine for one NOT to follow suit. And so far, no one has given a really good reason otherwise other than the subjective "Well, I think there needs to be...", which also doesn't address the potential for alienating existing healers into abandoning the role entirely.

So I'm clear and not making a straw man myself, I see your points as:

1) We need to futureproof - new expansions need to be able to add new abilities. I've shown why that isn't a concern.

2) Even a simple healer MUST have nuance otherwise they cannot plan healing strategy with co-healers. But as I've pointed out, even WHM (and all the rest) already have nuance IN THEIR HEALING KITS, meaning this is already possible.

3 & 4 (they're basically the same point) That you and some others like more nuance and complexity. But this isn't a valid argument when we're talking about making ALL THE OTHER THREE healers more complex and ONLY leaving WHM alone. As you point out, you can swap to AST right now when you want a challenge and WHM when you want to take it easy. What you're saying is you want to rob that latter option from people. If we were arguing over leaving all the other three healers simple and making ONLY WHM complex, then this argument would be valid. Right now, we're not arguing that. We're arguing about making the other three all complex in various ways and leaving WHM simple. So these to don't even apply. Especially as you're arguing to do to people who like simple the thing you dislike being done to you...

Some people liked HW DRK when they could spam Abyssal Drain to endlessly heal themselves.
Some people liked Kaiten because it gave SAM's Kenki Gauge an actual purpose.
Some people liked Trick Attack on a 1 minute timer because it was unique from all the 2 minute CDs

And do you feel it was a good thing for those changes to be made to them, forced on them? And even there, there are other tanks and other melees to play, you're demanding ALL healers change so there is no similar parity option.

SE has alienated those people, absolutely.

...so why are you advocating for MORE alienation, exactly, when you know it's a bad thing?

Cleric NEVER WAS and NEVER WILL BE "depth". It was a clunky, janky mechanic and good riddance to it. People who actually played with it and looked at the game as a whole have long generally agreed it was a garbage skill, and that's why people were ASKING FOR ITS REMOVAL at the time. This is an argument I will NEVER accept because it was never true. SCHOLAR had some nuance with Cleric because Lustrate healed based on % Health. WHM never had that. It was "turn on, use DoTs, turn off, heal, turn on, use dots..." which required no brain power and was just clunky and obnoxious. That spell dying was one of the best things that ever happened to healers in FFXIV. At least, to WHM.

Outside of that, all WHM lost were two DoTs, and this was made up for largely by the additions to its kit since then.

I DO agree that I'd like to see Stoneskin, Protect, etc added as lower level spells that upgrade. THAT would make sense. I would place Cure 1/2 at 500 MP. AST has the more MP efficient AOE heals, so why not make WHM's niche that they have the more MP efficient single target ones? 700 MP Cure 1 might cause problems in lower level content where that's literally the only spell you have and tanks don't have good CDs yet.

And I do miss Aero 3. I HATE DOTs and cannot, for the life of me, understand why you people are all so infatuated with the damn things - and EVERY HEALER HAS THEM! It's one of the few things I REALLY hate about FFXIV. But I wouldn't mind Aero 3 and Miasma 2 being back in the game. We DO NOT need a second DoT. One is sufficient. And if we got Aero 3 (or a holy themed equivalent), we would already have a second DoT (mathematically, Aero 3 was a DPS gain), so we don't need A THIRD ONE.

God, you people and your love of effin' stupid DoTs...

Don’t understand this complex idea people keep mentioning aren’t all dps classes more complex than every healer? Aren’t tanks more complex than every healer? So why do those jobs get engaging rotations with synergistic kits while we get nothing like that.

Because not all of us WANT that?

Some of us don't find that "engaging" and rather find it "annoying"?

Because there are 19 Jobs in this game and 1 or 2 (or honestly even 4) NOT being like that isn't a bad thing?

Because if we wanted to play a Job with a more complex damage rotation, we'd be playing one of the 15 Jobs that have a more complex damage rotation?

*NOTE: As I've said, I support 2-3 healers being made more complex for the people that want to HEAL while also having a more complex rotation. But just as not all Damage Dealers need to be NIN/BLM and not all Tanks need to be DRK, not all healers need that, either.

<snip>

I can't even debate you anymore. You really have no grasp on the argument or even...basic logic.

For example, you're trying to compare a change/reversion on one Job to changing four simultaneously. The proper argument here would be: Suppose there were TWO SAMs in the game in 6.0. And the Devs discussed making this change to ONE of them, but leaving the other as is. Or, conversely, suppose the Devs made a second SAM in the game now in 6.1, and both had Kaiten removed, and someone was saying to you "So why don't we put Kaiten back on one but not the other?" and you replied to them "NO! It's ALL OR NOTHING! They must BOTH get it and how dare you suggest that of the TWO JOBS, we leave ONE alone!"

Moreover, you're arguing it backwards anyway, as you're arguing to go against the status quo from 6.0. That is, based on MY POSITION, Square should NOT have removed Kaiten, since THAT was the status quo/incumbent position.

Somehow, in all these arguments, you're managing to look at EVERYTHING backwards from what is logical. The reality is, your arguments are the weak ones here. The Kaiten change proves it - it was a change made to an existing thing that has now seriously alienated the people that liked the pre-existing condition. This is exactly what YOU are arguing for, not I; that we change healers and the people that play them now and like it now be damned. YOU are on the Kaiten removal side of this argument, not me. I'm on the "Well, let's have two SAMs and remove Kaiten on one and leave Kaiten on the other and let the players gravitate to the one that they like best" side, and you are insisting "No! We remove Kaiten on both and anyone who doesn't like it can just be bad!"

.

As for why incumbent advantage: Simple, because people who like the system as it is are the ones playing it right now. If you alienated enough of them, then there would be a massive healer shortage. You can bank on people starting to heal that aren't right now, but that's not a certainty. Further, even if many did start, you have no guarantee it would be sufficient to correct for the losses. For example, if you made all healers like SB SCH, I'd honestly probably quit healing, and might quit the game. Additionally, you have no idea the people that tried it would like it OR would stick with it, while people who are already doing the existing thing would likely (at least mostly) stick with it going forward were it to stay the same. Many people try a thing once it's changed, find they don't like it, and go back. DPSers who hate healing aren't going to suddenly love playing healers because they have 2-3 more DoTs.

So how are you going to fill the likely void of healers?

[Silver-Strider]

...so why are you advocating for MORE alienation, exactly, when you know it's a bad thing?

I'm advocating for the people that those changes have alienated. Healers have lost tons of skills and abilities that gave them depth and were alienated as a result. I want them to revert those changes so that we aren't alienated anymore. Someone is getting Alienated either way.

Cleric NEVER WAS and NEVER WILL BE "depth".

Cleric Stance had some interaction with Assize originally. It was either a heal with a small DPS benefit or a DPS skill with a small heal benefit depending on if Cleric was on or not. A small interaction for sure, but it was there. I didn't see Cleric Stance as any more or less clunky as Eukrasis currently is on SGE; they're functionally the same premise. Hell, I'd advocate that they could return Cleric Stance as a way to reduce button bloat by having Cleric Stance turn our normal spells into their Afflatus Equivalent skill but that's a different topic all together.

700 MP Cure 1 might cause problems in lower level content where that's literally the only spell you have and tanks don't have good CDs yet.

The idea in a vacuum would be problematic since it doesn't consider the rest of the game but looking at it alongside other changes makes it more sustainable. I would change Fluid Aura a little to have a 5% MP restore attached to it so that by the time you start running dungeons, you have Fluid Aura to help alleviate the slight increase in MP cost of Cure 1. They already lowered the level you get Lucid Dreaming so it doesn't really feel like it would be that much of a problem and even less so once you start unlocking more skills as you level.

God, you people and your love of effin' stupid DoTs...

We find multitasking stimulating. Managing multiple DoTs was fun for us and it's a little insulting when you see NPC trusts that get to utilize all these old skills that we ourselves can't because SE is saying we can't trust players to have them but the NPCs are more than capable, like we're stupider than the NPCs or something (which might be true for some players but still insulting nonetheless). I hate doing Tower of Zot and seeing Aero 3 cast every single time.

[QooEr]

And so far, no one has given a really good reason otherwise other than the subjective "Well, I think there needs to be..."

thats because anything with "should" is inherently subjective. if you keep going further down any reasoning path you will eventually hit a dead end. while someone can base their beliefs on objective reality theres always going to be an individual subjective component in their judgment.

which also doesn't address the potential for alienating existing healers into abandoning the role entirely.

ive said multiple times that there can and there has been depth that wouldnt alienate them. im saying that whatever depth the simple healer gets, it should be specifically of that kind. as per your own words:

And all of the above - even if we did ALL of it at once - wouldn't really change their rotation much. [...] This gives it a bit of nuance (roughly like WAR among Tanks), while maintaining almost entirely the present playstyle and general hotbar economy

that is precisely the kind of state i think the simple healer in the role should be in. i dont think it would alienate anyone who enjoys the current iteration of healers. i dont think it would overwhelm or annoy them to get new toys.

when i disagree that one healer should not "follow suit", i say it because whm as is is more shallow than what you described. forcing whm to forever languish in this overly simplistic state would make it stagnate because giving it litearlly anything would technically make it "more complex". the changes you described would certainly make whm more involved, but then it wouldnt be "following suit" either. would those changes alienate players?

---

and re: healing optimization with whm... what you described is the most basic of it all. cutting overheal is bordering obvious. gcd uptime is also such a basic fundamental skill, that even lv1 jobs have that. my problem with whm "optimization" is that its literally just gameplay fundamentals. i had a monk main friend that swapped to whm once for p3s "just to try it out" and got a blue parse without any practice whatsoever, because the job is that simple.

ive also had my fair share of whm cohealers over the years, both in low stakes and high stakes settings and every single time it devolved into "let the astro heal virtually everything". which might be a bit fun but its also quite annoying. (i guess lossless misery helped to mitigate that, but im still not particularly thrilled to get a whm cohealer because theres barely any skills to move around when optimizing).

[Nizzi]

And I do miss Aero 3. I HATE DOTs and cannot, for the life of me, understand why you people are all so infatuated with the damn things - and EVERY HEALER HAS THEM! It's one of the few things I REALLY hate about FFXIV. But I wouldn't mind Aero 3 and Miasma 2 being back in the game. We DO NOT need a second DoT. One is sufficient. And if we got Aero 3 (or a holy themed equivalent), we would already have a second DoT (mathematically, Aero 3 was a DPS gain), so we don't need A THIRD ONE.

God, you people and your love of effin' stupid DoTs...

[Shurrikhan]

Square should NOT have removed Kaiten, since THAT was the status quo/incumbent position.

As was healers actually having shit to do, the change away from which likewise "alienated the people who liked the pre-existing condition." 90+% of one's GCDs being spent on a single button has only been a thing since Shadowbringers.

Your argument seems dependent on a warrant that if something is not reverted within a single patch, it should be considered as the new norm forever more -- and protected against subjective preference, no matter how comparatively popular, outside of specific functional issues with the new state.

By contrast, I think the norm offers only a small weight in value, rather than near-absolute protection; instead, the center of discussion should simply be which of two options would most greatly improve the state of the game for the most people. The new (or return, in the case of healers having more to do) owes at most explanation of what quality it would provide; it need not be applicable only when the existing state is provably disfunctional (for which goalposts would only be inevitably shifted with every step).

So how are you going to fill the likely void of healers?

You still have yet to feasibly suggest how having more available to do would leave the healer role vacant.

DPSers who hate healing aren't going to suddenly love playing healers because they have 2-3 more DoTs.

I've not suggested that merely having an extra DoT or two would fix healers' issues. It would be helpful, but hardly sufficient.

God, you people and your love of effin' stupid DoTs...

I'm no huge fan of DoTs in particular, but let's look at what's stupidly decent about their design:

• They're soft CDs.
• By being on, effectively, a CD, they can include bonus affordances, such as instant-casts. Yet, as soft-CDs they can be used early, too, at variable cost. They can also be held, allowing their debuffs to fall off for a brief time before reapplication a couple seconds later during necessary movement, etc.
• Said soft CDs have charges equal to enemy count, up to the point they're eclipsed by AoE spam, giving further situational variance to their optimal usage.
• They reward knowledge of the remaining time-to-kill on their targets.

[Imora]

And when healers become more complex and the supply dries up because liw skill folks can't play them for whatever reason, and move on to dos while everyone cries trying to level alt jobs and there's no healers.

[Sebazy]

And when healers become more complex and the supply dries up because liw skill folks can't play them for whatever reason, and move on to dos while everyone cries trying to level alt jobs and there's no healers.

And yet near enough anything I queue for as healer currently gets me an instant pop. That was never the case in HW or SB and Shadowbringers wasn't as consistent either.

Not to mention, healers were far more imposing to play to a high standard when cleric stance was a thing, that didn't stop people from playing the role, rather they simply didn't use that aspect of their kit as much.

[Silver-Strider]

And when healers become more complex and the supply dries up because liw skill folks can't play them for whatever reason, and move on to dos while everyone cries trying to level alt jobs and there's no healers.

Why doesn't this same argument apply to Tanks?
They're already more complex than any of the Healers so why aren't people abandoning them?

[Icecylee]

More importantly, what business would they have being on an actual DPS if a marginal increase in complexity would be enough to push them off healers, lol.