What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Xirean]

Sincere question: are you responding to what I said, or is this rhetorical? Because I'm absolutely not a person who is terrified by, or who denies, that there are bad things to say about the game. At this point, I've probably written enough words harshly criticizing Endwalker to qualify as a Graduate Thesis Paper. So I have no choice but to assume you're talking about someone else.

But if you ARE talking about me, my point is that though I think the people in this thread are (mostly) right, it's still a minority of people compared to those who like the game and sing its praises. On any existent, observable metric, we can see that the number of people heaping endless praise on Endwalker vastly outnumber those who criticize it any substantial way. Like you said, you could then try to argue "Okay, but there's actually a lot of people who really hate it like us, but get silenced by the masses" -- in which case, sure. Let's assume that's true. But that's why I said "existent, observable metric". If those people are hidden, then by definition, we can't observe them. Similarly, if there are "masses" which can silence them, then that is likewise an acknowledgement that the people being silenced constitute a "minority", whether you define that as a statistic or lack of privilege.

There is, after all, a reason why people keep saying this is their "last bastion of hope" of critical discourse against the rest of the internet.

So quick question. Does being a minority mean that said group should not be heard? Hrothgar are a minority in the game as well so do they not deserve hats or hair or a functioning spine?

I don't see the relevance in labeling a group as a minority or majority other than to silence one group or another.

[CrownySuccubus]

So quick question. Does being a minority mean that said group should not be heard?

I don't understand how this is even a question when I stated that 1) I think the people in this thread are usually right and 2) I've definitely argued my points about the story in threads outside of this one. (Granted, you wouldn't know that without searching my post history, but still.)

I don't see the relevance in labeling a group as a minority or majority other than to silence one group or another.

This makes no sense. Saying that an animal is endangered doesn't imply you want them to disappear or be further reduced. Saying that a movie is a "cult classic" doesn't mean that you think its fans suck or that more mainstream movies are inferior. These terms are relative comparisons -- nothing more.

Frankly, I don't understand the pushback.

[Xirean]

Frankly, I don't understand the pushback.

That would be because it's not pushback. It's a clarifier question.

[CrownySuccubus]

That would be because it's not pushback. It's a clarifier question.

Alright then...if you say so.

[Lunaxia]

Frankly, I don't understand the pushback.

Because there was no reason for you make such a statement other than as an oblique attempt undermine the argument, which I think you know.

I'm baffled as to why anyone in this thread would continue to try to do this when the very reason this thread exists, and why we're here, is to refute the notion that popularity or majority mindsets are automatically correct, or that seemingly minority opinions are unequivocally wrong for being just that.

[tokinokanatae]

The reason for pointing out that an opinion is a minority one in this context isn't to say that it shouldn't be expressed, it's to allow for realistic expectations of how the complaints might be addressed.

If the majority of the playerbase has a positive response to Venat and Endwalker as a whole, this means that it's less likely for them to do a massive walkback of the narrative complaints the dissatisfied players have. Instead--as we've already seen--they might decide to allow more player flexibility in how to respond when Venat is mentioned, or they might decide to allow more positive responses to characters like Themis. Likewise, even though Garlemald subplots are unpopular overall, they might still have the budget to add a few sidequests for the minority that is interested in that part of the game.

It's when you begin to delude yourself that you are a majority opinion that you become the architect of your own frustration with the game. If you think there is a silent majority clamoring for a lavish cutscene repudiating Venat or another Garlemald expansion, then you'll just be more and more angry when you see SE "ignoring" the majority that only lives in your own head.

[YukikoKurosawa]

If I recall correctly, the darker tone was what they were going for into HW, but the higher ups said it needed to be changed as it was too dark. So parts of the HW plot was given to the retconning of ARR finale.

What's worse is that the entire Nanamo subplot didn't even need to happen at all. We already had sufficient setup for HW with the Dragons and Ysale and their conflict with Ishgard. We already HAD the tie in, we already had what we needed as reason to go help Ishgard. The entire Nanamo subplot only bloated an already overly bloated Post-ARR. The fact that they changed their minds on actually following through with any of it only makes it 100 times worse.

[Brinne]

Because there was no reason for you make such a statement other than as an oblique attempt undermine the argument, which I think you know.

I'm baffled as to why anyone in this thread would continue to try to do this when the very reason this thread exists, and why we're here, is to refute the notion that popularity or majority mindsets are automatically correct, or that seemingly minority opinions are unequivocally wrong for being just that.

It's because the people in this thread are also human and not immune to falling back on "lots of people agree with me, so I must be correct on some level," whether that's just within their own minds, or when presenting their case rhetorically - particularly in an environment like this which to a degree tends to curate certain viewpoints about the game and characters. I myself certainly let myself become more "hopeful" to a degree because, even though objectively the people who dislike Endwalker are a minority, I am also heartened by the fact that there are enough people numerically to hopefully cause SE to factor our viewpoints in when making decisions going forward. (Insert gushing about the Omega quests here.)

That being said, this thread probably gathers a lot of different people who don't share the exact same purpose for sharing their thoughts, which causes some hairs to get crossed. Are you here purely to vent? Are you here for the comfort of knowing you're not alone and there are at least a few people who agree with you? Are you here to analyze the text and what it does in one of several different possible ways? Are you here to advocate for your personal interests to get more content in the game? Are you here to speculate on how the game could be generally improved or appeal to more people or avoid the especially harsh criticism Endwalker's writing has gotten? Are you here to speculate on what the game will do in the future? Or a mixture of all those reasons, or even something else entirely? Nothing's wrong with any of those reasons, but expectations for how one goes about raw venting are going to be different than if something is presented as analysis or evaluation instead.

Like, I'm certainly not perfect, but I generally try to let it roll off my back when it's clear someone is just venting or speaking for themselves. When it hits me as something beyond that, I feel more at liberty to speak up as far as disagreements or clarifications.

Doing so doesn't necessarily mean someone is just trying to blanket-undermine-arguments, or correlating being a minority to being wrong, outside of maybe managing realistic expectations. Obviously, sometimes that's the case - it's something easily wielded in bad faith, so I get the caution. But it's a case-by-case thing, and sometimes hostility based on prior encounters with bad faith can be misaimed - which admittedly is made more difficult to evaluate on the fly because this thread is a very fun 560+ pages long at this point with lots of different posters going in and out.

[Rulakir]

I don't and never did expect them to walk back the elements that bothered me in 6.0, in that respect I was pleasantly surprised by the Omega quest chain. These are the same people who know Minfilia isn't a popular character and yet there's not a single dialog option that will elicit a negative response to her, even "..." is positive. My hope is that they simply don't do this again in the future. My continuing to be a paid subscriber is tentative now based on whether I'm going to feel like I'm not ethically on the same page as the writers, which includes the continued glorification of Venat and condemnation of the Ancients.

I would've had a lot less issues with the narrative if 1) there had been actual nuance surrounding Venat and 2) they hadn't portrayed the Ancients as having somehow deserving of being sundered, like that was a kindness or favor to them. It's what sits most at ill with me.

The way they handle Pandemonium, considering I'd argue Elidibus is probably the most tragic character in the game (followed closely by Emet), and the troubling implication that Azem is aware of their sundered self from the future are also points of concern. I've said before, I consider Azem working with Venat in any knowing capacity to be character breaking to me as it's antithetical to the characterization of the Azem soul up until the point of trying to portray Venat as all things great and wonderful.

So, I'm basically in 'wait and see' mode. It's unfortunate because as a WoW refugee and relatively new player I thought I'd found a new home with FFXIV and, all things considered, I don't have gripes with the rest of the game which is why my posts are predominantly all story/lore related. However, the MSQ being a big part of it and being as immersive as it is it's definitely problematic if I continue to feel this disconnected from the story and character I'm playing, which only started in 6.0.

[CrownySuccubus]

Because there was no reason for you make such a statement other than as an oblique attempt undermine the argument, which I think you know.

Uh, no? The actual problem is that the argument relied on those famous Weasel Words "many people" [dislike G'raha Tia], which is irrelevant given the fan-favorite status of the character. The way it seems intended, as Brinne said above, is "lots of people agree with me, so I must be correct on some level."

I'm baffled as to why anyone in this thread would continue to try to do this when the very reason this thread exists, and why we're here, is to refute the notion that popularity or majority mindsets are automatically correct, or that seemingly minority opinions are unequivocally wrong for being just that.

Just going to quote what I said, since I don't think you're listening.

I think the people in this thread are (mostly) right, it's still a minority of people compared to those who like the game and sing its praises