What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Lucida3b]

Meanwhile, after Hydaelyn:

Alisaie: No! This can't be happening!

The fact that the Scions historically do not seem to care much about anything involving the Ancients in regard to the WoL has been frustrating and just adds to my feeling that they're more colleagues than friends. I'm left to headcanon that my WoL simply didn't share personal details with them outside of mentioning Azem. Particularly in regards to Emet, who the WoL is visibly upset about, they don't have much to say. I suppose it's at least something they didn't cheer when he disappeared in UT (though G'raha might have internally). :P

At least graha has a reason to hold a personal grudge cause he was tortured by emet or whatever, The alisaei thing bothers me the most as you think she would viscerally hate hydealyn based on her previous stances on sacrifice and moral quandaries

[Misplaced_Marbles]

I'm a fan of the "...okay" head tilt myself, personally.

I frequently appreciate that we often do have the choice between "yeah, let's do this!" and "god, do I have to?", and that typically we are able to respond less enthusiastically when someone gets excited over pairing up with the WoL. We even get the chance to shoot some of the Scions down themselves more than a few times, and I don't think anyone else should be immune to this simply due to popularity. As you say, even the option of a defeated sigh would go a long way.

I, on the other hand, don't appreciate it, since if there is no choice, a stoic nod works just as well. Being a bitch about what they're going to do regardless just makes the WoL seem like some pre-teen whining how "i don't wanna!" while lacking the conviction, willpower and/or autonomy to actually make a choice.

A stoic nod also works just as well, and usually even better than all that stupid self-pointing, fist pumping and palm punching they, for some reason, started forcing on the WoL. I'd just like to know WHY?!
Maybe it adds character to the WoL for some, but i think it's the wrong way to react to anything, and especially everything. Too much enthusiasm and it's usually out of place anyway. I'm sure most people the WoL meets think they're either a clown or a crazy person.

Yes, i do indeed specifically miss the "stoic" part.

[Rulakir]

I need dialog options. I absolutely hated the lobotomized WoL of ARR who would just agreeably nod to everything asked of them. It's one of the (many) reasons I almost didn't stick with the game because I felt like I was RPing a dummy. I loved being able to tell Alphinaud that Ala Mhigo wasn't my problem. I loved being able to tell Zenos I accepted him. I loved being able to tell Ardbert he was putting off my meal.

I feel the least they can do is offer diverse dialog options otherwise, frankly, the way they've personified the WoL particularly in EW simply isn't a character I'm interested in playing. I needed to express dissatisfaction with what was happening, I didn't get that opportunity, and I've never felt such a disconnect between what was happening on screen and how I was feeling. It's just not something that works for me.

[Khantusnonpour]

I absolutely loved the story, I am fairly new as I have only been playing a few months but even with all the catching up to do, complicated arcs and parts of the main story locked behind raid content, I still absolutely loved the End walker story, so your question would be better if it said "why do I find the End walker story boring, what is it about me that does not like it."

[jameseoakes]

I absolutely loved the story, I am fairly new as I have only been playing a few months but even with all the catching up to do, complicated arcs and parts of the main story locked behind raid content, I still absolutely loved the End walker story, so your question would be better if it said "why do I find the End walker story boring, what is it about me that does not like it."

I don't think that suffering makes me a better person and that working to eliminate it is a good thing?

[KageTokage]

At this point, the Omega quests have set a standard that's going to leave me feeling even more disappointed if they end up walking back on the nuance brought up there and trying to push the Sundering as the "right" outcome for humanity again.

That said, I'm kind of worried about how Myths of the Realm is going to end up resolving given the statement that it was like an epilogue to the Hydaelyn/Zodiark conflict.

[Teraq]

I've only just discovered this thread exists via the Omega questline thread and wow, what a cathartic read. I've basically been coping and seething since December with no outlet. Vent incoming.

I will never get tired of new faces coming into this thread, finally realizing they're not alone and just. Letting it all out. YOU LOVE TO SEE IT

I am fortunate enough I have friends who share my opinion and whom I could rant and vent to since late December. Before that was hell and I can't imagine going 6 months keeping this much seething and malding to myself. Welcome.

The possibility of saving them is basically dangled in front of us and then cruelly snatched away. I struggle to fathom who would consider the popularity of the ancients and still think this sort of bait is a good idea.

I have more and more come to accept that Shadowbringers was just a fluke. They created one of the most popular villains in the franchise and, if YoshiP's recent tone-deaf comparison of Venat and Hermes's reception to Emet's is anything to go by, they apparently have no idea how.

It's not just that the writing of Endwalker was... um... questionable, but what they did – largely to the Ancients; there are probably other issues too but I will fully admit I'm biased here so I'll talk about what incenses me the most – actively diminishes what made Shadowbringers so powerful and nuanced in the first place. I genuinely don't know how you could hit upon such a gold mine with positive fan reaction and engagement then subsequently tell us "Actually, these people were definitely wrong. They never had any hope of overcoming the completely avoidable tragedy that befell them, they deserved it, and erasing their entire culture and civilisation from history was very definitely, obviously the only Right way to defeat Meteion, but we'll pretend to still raise the 'grey morality' question by having Venat self-flagellate. It's what you guys like, right? The grey morality thing? Yes?"

And then we get Emet in Ultima Thule. Which... ugh. I'll just use the phrase "twist of the knife", do the sassy handwave and drop the subject – it's the only way I'm willing to deal with it right now.

As someone else said, this was Victim Blaming: The Expansion, and don't you love it when it ends with one of the victims – the only one that truly matters to the writer, by the way (clenches fist in Elidibus Enjoyer) – begrudgingly praising the abuser that was responsible for their last 12,000 years of suffering? It's a great story about hope in the face of despair, isn't it?

quite frankly the fact that after seeing this behaviour Emet thinks having him on the convocation would be a boon is ridiculous. Did we get different cutscenes? This man should be in therapy, not a position of governance.

This is why I couldn't fully enjoy Elpis even before Ktisis. I loved the fanservice with the world building, I really did, and even though Emet isn't my #1 fave I appreciated hanging out with him and Hythlo. But Hermes... god. The more it went on, the more I got this sinking feeling that the game was justifying him with the animal rights pity party, even though I personally found it over-exaggerated and silly. But I could feel the game bashing me over the head with "SEE? DON'T YOU THINK HE'S RIGHT?? NOBODY UNDERSTANDS HIM! WHAT ABOUT THE POOR artificial prototype ANIMALS??? LOOK AT THE AXOLOTL AND THIS LITTLE HEDGEHOG FAMILY OH MY GODDd" – even though every other Ancient in the side quests felt like actually normal people – and more than anything, I resented the blatant attempt at emotional manipulation.

It was plainly obvious to me since his second scene that this man should have never stayed in his position this long, and that the solution was definitely not giving him a job with even more responsibilities on the Highest Grand Council of Humanity when he blatantly demonstrated that having to take pragmatic decisions for the good of the many made him melt down.

Needless to say Elidibus and Zodiark were also both done dirty to the extreme, where is the reverence for the one that sacrificed himself for the greater good and solely in service to his brethren? Instead we heap praise on somebody who only acted in haughty self importance and service of her own beliefs. Overall, Elidibus is an all round good egg and deserves far more credit in the narrative than he got.

nggggghh lately I've been feeling the need to Elidibuspost... kind of like when you feel a sneeze coming. Getting onto my soapbox and making a heartfelt plea for the biggest tragedy of this 10-year story arc, the handling of Elidibus's character. Look, this post is getting long enough.

I'd would be interesting to get a honest run down of what happened in the build up to Endwalker, it feels very much like something went wrong.

Same, but I really doubt we'll ever hear a 100% honest blunt tale of it, corporate Japan presumably being what it is.

But, bluntly, when it comes to how expectations affect one's response to things - I probably wouldn't have been nearly as vocally disappointed in Endwalker if Shadowbringers hadn't surprised me, blown me away, and genuinely touched me in a lot of ways. Prior to Shadowbringers, I was a fan of FFXIV and had been playing and enjoying it for a while, but on a writing level, it usually amounted to "I can see the effort being put in here and it's fun to dissect on that level, but it's pretty clumsy more often than not." [...]
And because EW is a direct continuation and resolution to those ShB elements I treasured, I can't even compartmentalize the way they clash. So rather than shrugging it off, I opted to explode and thoroughly embarrass myself by ranting and raving on these forums, it seems. Whoops!

Very much agree with the sentiment. I'll even say EW made me regret getting so invested emotionally in ShB. I wish I hadn't had any expectations for 6.0 – then maybe my response to it would have been a big ol' shrug, like my reaction to the story largely was prior to ShB.

It's made all the worse by 6.0 supposedly being the mega-hyped big finale of the arc, wrapping up everything. When the episode you're watching isn't the finale yet, you can handwave certain plot points not getting addressed / being done justice yet, because there's always the hope it's going to pay off later. I was willing to forgive patches 5.2 and 5.3 for A LOT, because it's not the end yet, right? Pretty sure I'll get a lot more resolution in the expac that is literally going to be about Hydaelyn and Zodiark and heavily teased the Moon, right?? And now that the cat is out of the bag, I have barely enough hopium left in my tank for Pandaemonium.

Also.... they did basically bring emet back because of fan appeal. That much is quite obvious lol. Elpis was just a huge fanservice parade for emet as well as the end of UT. This is pretty obvious when you read his 5.3 short story where he states this is his last act....SPOILER IT WASNT.

This right here pisses me off in particular. I thought it was a perfect ending for his filthy traitor sentimental self. IMO it was like Zenos's suicide at the end of 4.0: great end to the character, now drop it. I'm not against flashbacks, but UT definitely went way too far with the cringe. Know when to quit.

If I recall correctly he mentions having watched the fight itself unfold from afar. (Which begs the question as to why he did not seek to intervene...but I digress!)

Presumably he would have seen what happened immediately before and after as well.

If it's any help, in the French script he explicitly refers to this as an incidental dream vision – though I don't know how it is qualified in Japanese. (My very-basic-weeaboo-level Japanese didn't pick up on any mention of yume. That's all I can tell you.) I just assumed it was his own Echo powers, and that he saw it after the fact.

[AnaviAnael]

I absolutely loved the story, I am fairly new as I have only been playing a few months but even with all the catching up to do, complicated arcs and parts of the main story locked behind raid content, I still absolutely loved the End walker story, so your question would be better if it said "why do I find the End walker story boring, what is it about me that does not like it."

I beg your pardon, but the way you have this phrased makes it sound like there's something wrong with disliking Endwalker, or that there's something wrong with people who didn't like it. Not liking Endwalker is a matter of personal taste. I'm glad you enjoyed it, there are many people out there that feel the same. For some of us this isn't the case.

[CrownySuccubus]

FFS lady my consent comment was about SHOVING HIS SOUL INTO HIS PAST SELF WHICH WE ARE NEVER SHOWN.

Erm. Okay? Since we're directly told it isn't possible to do that without the host body consenting to it, it's a point brought up for nothing.

Lawd have mercy, and again, my elidibus comment is because prior to 5.3 the man isn’t stupid. He knows graha is strong and also can manipulate the tower. Common sense says to get someone that problematic out of the picture asap. Chai nuzz is completely not a threat. Graha is. You’re being willfully obtuse. Just stop.

By your own logic, then, Elidibus decided that the WOL was an even bigger threat than Gr'aha....and he wasn't entirely wrong. Elidibus directly tells you that since YOU are the person who had a hand in killing both Lahabrea and Emet-Selch, he considers you to be the biggest threat to their plans. Your own argument here does not work.

It's an issue of consent in the sense that the development team should be more widely aware that 'fan favourites' are not universally adored and that the constant hero worship is not to everybody's cup of tea to begin with.

Sure. But "fan favorite" does mean those people are a minority, so...while it sucks that they can't have exactly what they want, a lot more people DO get what they want.

Again, other than the option for players to tell specific party members to scram (which you can't do in FFXIV as of yet), I don't know what else you expect them to do.

The G'raha problem is an off shoot of the Venat controversy - this strange insistence that the player character has to like and have this deep connection instead of just...giving us dialogue options that reflect a broader range of reactions. The same result can still be pushed through but with the decency to give our character some agency.

Even if it's as simple as a choice between our character sighing in resignation and happily agreeing.

Right. So the game could basically be more like Elder Scrolls.

So basically, you're agreeing with the point I made about it being a problem of linear narrative.

[MikkoAkure]

At this point, the Omega quests have set a standard that's going to leave me feeling even more disappointed if they end up walking back on the nuance brought up there and trying to push the Sundering as the "right" outcome for humanity again.

That said, I'm kind of worried about how Myths of the Realm is going to end up resolving given the statement that it was like an epilogue to the Hydaelyn/Zodiark conflict.

The Omega quests give us, the player, an option to personally agree or disagree with any or all of them, but none of the options actually change any of the resulting dialogue. Ishikawa herself said that the final third of the Dead Ends is representative of where the Ancients would have gone if nothing changed and Omega in that cutscene you referenced compares Hermes' "change or die" test that he put onto humanity to that of the ancient, biological Omicrons. So ultimately I don't expect anything to change and I don't think there's any added nuance beyond asking the player a question that will never come up again and doesn't even change how the NPCs in the cutscene react.