A different approach to ALL jobs

[Deveryn]

We haven't lost anything from the trust reveamp. They've clearly got more people to handle things now, but going back and changing something core to the game like the skill progression in synced content is way too much.

Unreals are updated about every major patch. We also get a new dungeon with every major patch. These (along with the other tiered content) achieve the proposed goal and satisfy that desire to use a full kit in content. Solo experiences aside, the old dungeons are fine as they are.

[Ath192]

We haven't lost anything from the trust reveamp. They've clearly got more people to handle things now, but going back and changing something core to the game like the skill progression in synced content is way too much.

Unreals are updated about every major patch. We also get a new dungeon with every major patch. These (along with the other tiered content) achieve the proposed goal and satisfy that desire to use a full kit in content. Solo experiences aside, the old dungeons are fine as they are.

Do you have any evidence this would be as much work as people are saying it will be? Or is all this speculation?

Let me tell you rebalancing the unreal fight could be anything as simple as taking an average max DPS of each job and multiplying a bosses hit point pool by an according amount and then multiplying the bosses abilities damage factor according to peoples HP now a days and calling it a day. It could also be a tangled mess back there, but we don't know.

I think rather than focusing on guessing the work for the devs we should discuss whether the idea is better as a concept than what we have now. If they like it and want to implement it they will, otherwise they don't have to bother.

TBH it would be kind of weird for me to walk into work and see a bunch of people in an online feedback forum telling me it would be too hard to do X feature when they don't have any idea how the system behind it works or how the company departments are set up to tackle these sort of things. For some reason XIV users love doing this, and they were all wrong when guessing at the issues behind the housing lottery number issues.

To me its clear that job ability progression has become an issue in the game, and using the current model will keep getting worse as they have to thin out and spread these abilities across ever more levels so you dont end with 100 buttons at max level. So we would benefit from discussing what things could potentially help.

[Irenia]

I'm just curious if "new flashy thing in new levels" is not a marketing requirement. SMN, while mostly giving you the bones early on, is criticized because it takes until Endwalker content to feel complete, for example. Not to mention how strange the conversation around Expedient was, compared to now.

[Shurrikhan]

The fact it takes so much work just to rebalance one fight suggests to me that they would not do it for all of the previous content.

That doesn't make it any less worthwhile. Past-expansion content, after all, makes up more than 85% of our total content. Now, that will mean actually finding systematic means of doing this, rather than simply trying to rebuild those past fights for the potency-per-minute of a given level cap, but to spend even an expansion's worth of content time on that now would still increase endgame-relevant content by 5 times as much.

That's not to say that we should accept further massive content slows; content pacing has been slowing as is. But it absolutely a lucrative investment.

I'm just curious if "new flashy thing in new levels" is not a marketing requirement. SMN, while mostly giving you the bones early on, is criticized because it takes until Endwalker content to feel complete, for example. Not to mention how strange the conversation around Expedient was, compared to now.

To be fair, it doesn't feel "complete" at 90, either. It just takes until then to feel even like a barebone proof of content.

[Deveryn]

Do you have any evidence this would be as much work as people are saying it will be? Or is all this speculation?

Let me tell you rebalancing the unreal fight could be anything as simple as taking an average max DPS of each job and multiplying a bosses hit point pool by an according amount and then multiplying the bosses abilities damage factor according to peoples HP now a days and calling it a day. It could also be a tangled mess back there, but we don't know.

I think rather than focusing on guessing the work for the devs we should discuss whether the idea is better as a concept than what we have now. If they like it and want to implement it they will, otherwise they don't have to bother.

TBH it would be kind of weird for me to walk into work and see a bunch of people in an online feedback forum telling me it would be too hard to do X feature when they don't have any idea how the system behind it works or how the company departments are set up to tackle these sort of things. For some reason XIV users love doing this, and they were all wrong when guessing at the issues behind the housing lottery number issues.

To me its clear that job ability progression has become an issue in the game, and using the current model will keep getting worse as they have to thin out and spread these abilities across ever more levels so you dont end with 100 buttons at max level. So we would benefit from discussing what things could potentially help.

I feel like the evidence is right in front of us in what's given to us on a regular basis. Rebalancing one fight is one thing. Rebalancing whole dungeons is likely to be a whole other thing. The whole duty support thing is quite the extra effort they're making and I think they'll be inclined not to revisit any of this content again. What you're suggesting will involve them going back and redoing more balancing as the cap gets higher and higher.

I'm just curious if "new flashy thing in new levels" is not a marketing requirement. SMN, while mostly giving you the bones early on, is criticized because it takes until Endwalker content to feel complete, for example. Not to mention how strange the conversation around Expedient was, compared to now.

It's nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with the poor condition the summoner job was in. By comparison. SCH was in such a good spot that they didn't see the need to add very much.

[Ath192]

I feel like the evidence is right in front of us in what's given to us on a regular basis. Rebalancing one fight is one thing. Rebalancing whole dungeons is likely to be a whole other thing. The whole duty support thing is quite the extra effort they're making and I think they'll be inclined not to revisit any of this content again. What you're suggesting will involve them going back and redoing more balancing as the cap gets higher and higher.


It's nothing to do with marketing and everything to do with the poor condition the summoner job was in. By comparison. SCH was in such a good spot that they didn't see the need to add very much.

The evidence I’m looking at shows they are going back and fixing fundamental issues with the game.
1. Outdated dungeons
2. Outdated textures
3. Outdated MSQ quests that dragged on forever
4. Future proofing early content by adding trusts

So it would stand to reason they should address outdated ability progression. No one enjoys pressing three to five buttons for a whole expansion(ARR). It’s not a good experience for new players, or anyone.

[Deveryn]

The evidence I’m looking at shows they are going back and fixing fundamental issues with the game.
1. Outdated dungeons
2. Outdated textures
3. Outdated MSQ quests that dragged on forever
4. Future proofing early content by adding trusts

So it would stand to reason they should address outdated ability progression. No one enjoys pressing three to five buttons for a whole expansion(ARR). It’s not a good experience for new players, or anyone.

I don't know what you're looking at that suggests dungeons are outdated. They're only being tweaked for duty support compatibility. Duty support is NOT for future proofing. It's to entice those that avoid this FF because of its multiplayer nature. Everything else is mostly cosmetic. ARR was ridiculously long and needed to be trimmed down. They did so. MSQ roulette was the final piece of that.

Take a good look at what it is you're asking for. You want everyone to have all skills all the time in all content, not just dungeons, but fates and raids etc. Even deep dungeons, where they are purposely capped and balanced for those skillsets. Go count how many pieces of content that is and come back to me with a a solid reason for them to engage in this process which (as I noted) will need to be repeated every cap raise. The last thing any developer ever wants to do is keep going back to update things regularly. The goal is to have something that can be left alone and remain in use. They've achieved that.

[Ath192]

I don't know what you're looking at that suggests dungeons are outdated. They're only being tweaked for duty support compatibility. Duty support is NOT for future proofing. It's to entice those that avoid this FF because of its multiplayer nature. Everything else is mostly cosmetic. ARR was ridiculously long and needed to be trimmed down. They did so. MSQ roulette was the final piece of that.

Take a good look at what it is you're asking for. You want everyone to have all skills all the time in all content, not just dungeons, but fates and raids etc. Even deep dungeons, where they are purposely capped and balanced for those skillsets. Go count how many pieces of content that is and come back to me with a a solid reason for them to engage in this process which (as I noted) will need to be repeated every cap raise. The last thing any developer ever wants to do is keep going back to update things regularly. The goal is to have something that can be left alone and remain in use. They've achieved that.

I don’t think they have achieved that at all. And most of the early content is so unbalanced it’s a wasteland many abilities and complex mecanisms that were there to keep things interesting are no longer there such as TP and different stances, PLDs had raise, BLMs had abilities that allowed them to dodge physical attacks, etc etc…. All while potency increases and new jobs whose early game is an after though introduce power creep that trivializes everything. Also older dungeons were not tweaked, they were vastly transformed. I think you may be belittling their effort in order to suit your narrative here.

But yeah what I expect is for them to maintain and balance an ever increasing amount of content that gets neglected over time since they still expect people to pay subs and buy the game to play said areas. It seems like they are doing that, so I do aim to keep providing feedback on an area I feel they haven’t touched yet.

I do realize what I’m asking. I’m asking for them to keep working on the game as a whole, not just the new shiny bit.

[Sklaf]

I think saying that se cares about low-level balance at all for anything other than ultimate is foolish they don't and will continue not to care. I really like this idea though I wonder if it would be possible to add passives every 10 levels or so that just increase your potencies like in endwalker then all they need to do is adjust the passive instead of rebalancing everything. I also don't think the too many skills argument is valid because sprouts aren't going to read their buttons anyway I have seen many a lv 50/60 white mage not using holy not to mention the fact that the new skills usually just replace the old skills for alot of stuff especially on something like warrior why do I get a button just to get it replaced by fell cleave like 10 levels later.

[Deveryn]

I don’t think they have achieved that at all. And most of the early content is so unbalanced it’s a wasteland many abilities and complex mecanisms that were there to keep things interesting are no longer there such as TP and different stances, PLDs had raise, BLMs had abilities that allowed them to dodge physical attacks, etc etc…. All while potency increases and new jobs whose early game is an after though introduce power creep that trivializes everything. Also older dungeons were not tweaked, they were vastly transformed. I think you may be belittling their effort in order to suit your narrative here.

But yeah what I expect is for them to maintain and balance an ever increasing amount of content that gets neglected over time since they still expect people to pay subs and buy the game to play said areas. It seems like they are doing that, so I do aim to keep providing feedback on an area I feel they haven’t touched yet.

I do realize what I’m asking. I’m asking for them to keep working on the game as a whole, not just the new shiny bit.

I'm not belittling anything. They streamlined them. Nothing was rebalanced.

If you're gonna start talking about TP and such like it was a good thing, then I'm out and wish you the best on your future endeavors. o/