Has anyone quit healing?

[Liam_Harper]

The irony is that these same people note how tone-deaf it was for Yoshi P to say "If you want a challenge, just run Ultimates", yet they're doing the inverse of that "If you don't like complex, just don't run anything harder than normals or have a group carry you".

Why are we using the word "complex" with regards to adding a few dps buttons and having a little more damage to heal? A handful of dps buttons and having the group take damage more frequently than every 60 seconds or so is not rocket science. You're insulting your own intelligence by making statements like that.

[Amenara]

At one point, one of them attacked me by cluelessly claiming that the character you see in my forum profile didn't exist. Talk about stupid: of course it exists, because that info is generated by the forums, not me. But there's no lie too blatant for some of these whiners.

Of course I know him, He's me! Surprised you're still on about that, I completely forgot that even happened. You're right, I'm stupid because the search feature on the lodestone is janky at best if you use the search bar at the top of the screen. That aside I wasn't saying your character didn't exist, I just assumed there was a way on the lodestone to make your character invisible to searches, though it doesn't matter anymore.

As for why everyone is calling you a troll, you are saying objectively false/misleading things, and attempting to die on those hills akin to what you would expect from a troll trying to get a rise out of the forums. Then you go off calling anyone who disagrees with you in on the "Big Lie" or some other politically motivated message which makes me believe that you aren't a troll, you are just delusional and have been huffing your copium so long you can't see anything beyond your false statements.

[Renathras]

Why are we using the word "complex" with regards to adding a few dps buttons and having a little more damage to heal? A handful of dps buttons and having the group take damage more frequently than every 60 seconds or so is not rocket science. You're insulting your own intelligence by making statements like that.

So about those personal attacks...

Have you read any of my posts? I'm all in favor of making damage smaller but more frequent - this would require more GCD healing since you'd run out of oGCDs healing all the little bumps of damage and you'd want to save the oGCDs for the bigger bursts that need to be healed more rapidly). And yes, adding more DPS buttons to juggle makes it more complex. If it didn't, the people wanting it wouldn't be asking for it. It may not make it MUCH MORE complex, but it kind of makes them more complex by definition.

But, if you've read my posts, you'd know by now that I've advocated leaving WHM as it is but changing each of the other three (I'll say it in brief yet again: Give AST a 1-2-3 rotation and maybe an oGCD damage spell to weave in [MCH-lite], give SCH more DoTs and interacting abilities like Fester/Bane/DoTs with CDs that you want to stack in Fester windows/etc, leveraging its Faerie and Aetherflow for healing while maintaining DoT uptime [old SMN-lite...or heavy], and give SCH a slimmed down RDM or BLM-like Caster rotation where its healing is primarily through Kardia swapping while performing its rotation, also having abilities like a short duration second Kardia [think AST's Synastry] to heal a second target and an AOE Kardia [CD with a relatively short duration effect] that makes Kardia AOE healing. Really lean into Kardia being their primary method of healing with their GCD heals as an emergency backup and their oGCDs being mainly focused on doing more DPS to boost its healing, with some being based around mitigation/shielding [RDM/BLM-lite that heals as it does damage])

So no, I'm not insulting my little smooth brain intelligence, I just want there to be more playstyles but ensure we keep at least one as-is for the people that enjoy current day healing.

.

EDIT:

I'm fairly certain any post pertaining to liking the way current healing is will be be rebutted unless it simply is: "I like the way current healing is."

The replies to me show otherwise.

While I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt way too many people who have said "I like the way healing is, *insert argument*." have been eventually found out for simply being narcissist's whose argument essentially boiled down to:

"I like the way it is, play with bad people if you want your job to be good, I don't care if you're not having fun, deal with it."

This is ...basically what I'm talking about here. And no, I haven't said that at all, nor have I seen other people saying that. I think AT BEST that's you misunderstanding something, and resulting in a caricature of their positions.

Rapid fire:

Sage: Agree, I felt it was going to be a RIFT Chloromancer or WoW Disc Priest and was surprised to see it...not be that.

"Basic B": Ah, another fan of Cole Evryx? I agree with this position, and it's partly what I'm advocating for personally.

"most of them would be 'bad' or ranked extremely low": Remember that personal insult thing I mentioned above? Yeah, this is that. And no, most of them wouldn't be. Me personally, I have no static. I've still managed greens and blues despite this (and not running any add-ons myself to practice this with or determine this myself - just find myself on the abacus after the fact), and I could probably push myself further and would, if I had a consistent group to do the encounters with, make a healing plan with my co-healer, etc. As it is, I have to YOLO things and provide more of a buffer (more GCD heals, more careful use of oGCDs) since I'd rather parse low (I honestly don't care about parses for the most part anyway in a GENERAL sense) and clear the content than see a DPS eat dirt because they did the stupid and I didn't put an Adlo on them.

I would contend that most, in fact, would not be "'bad' or ranked extremely low". It's all based on individual circumstances.

"In terms of the amount of trolls": So about those rebuttals instead of personal attacks...likening people to trolls for holding a position IS said personal attacks.

"Using the above we could say that most healers who like the way current healing is simply don't understand the way current healer functions in the total or simply don't care: Do I need to repeat myself YET AGAIN?

"Such players would do just fine with any change": As I've noted elsewhere, this is not true. This is, again, a case of "Just play easy content if you don't want to play our way", which is the 180 of Yoshi P's incendiary statement. How is "They can just play easy content" any better than him saying "You can just play harder content"?

"they do not strive to improve in any particular way or direction that doesn't include their enjoyment": So...personal attacks. Yeah. Moving on.

"They don't run anything harder than normal already": This is abjectly false. Many of us smooth brains run Extremes and have as our typical end-game content. Some of us get into Savages (I started just this tier after playing for 9 years)

"and groups already do carry them": PERSONAL. ATTACKS.

"What would change is people would more often recognize now how incompetent they are": PERSONAL. ATTACKS. Seriously, for a post saying "people rebut your points and don't call you names", this is a LOT of name-calling. I get you aren't EXPLICITLY naming me, but you're insulting groups that I'm at least incidentally associated with, and these insults are bad/baseless. And even if they WEREN'T, they're still personal attacks and not arguing the points. Indeed, ALL of the times above you made these personal attacks, you often had a point to make. For example, you could have said "This won't matter to players doing easier content where optimization isn't needed and they may not want to engage in any". Instead, you said that first part, then insisted they were bad, lazy, etc. In the words of Ace Ventura: "Leave that part out next time!"

"Now if you disagree with the above that's a whole other can of worms": Is it, now?

The difference between the two comparisons you make is that one person doesn't understand the question in its entirety and probably gave a non-answer intentionally, has not experienced and probably has no experience in general about healing and is relegating a group to a specific corner of the game if they want to find enjoyment.

Whereas the other group understands both sides of the argument as they have been the noob and risen to the "elite hardcore raider" and are advocating for complexity across the board so everyone can have fun everywhere.

No, that's you making a distinction so you can support one side over the other on a technicality when they ARE both doing the same thing, just one you agree with.

That's just my take though and I'm probably going to be quitting after I finish this next ultimate so~

I do say this genuinely, though:

I am sorry to hear that. I genuinely am sad that some of you just really don't like the game/healing as it is now. Which is why I have advocated changing it. But, there are limits to changes, and any good compromise ends with everyone getting some of what they want but neither side getting everything. At the end of the day, we should see to the needs of both sides and meet there with a compromise, not go whole hog one or the other; hence what I've been advocating for.

[Nethereal]

This is ...basically what I'm talking about here. And no, I haven't said that at all, nor have I seen other people saying that. I think AT BEST that's you misunderstanding something, and resulting in a caricature of their positions.

I haven't been checking your posts specifically but as far as I can tell you indeed haven't been doing that.

I'm not surprised you haven't been seeing that either as you've only joined this discussion very recently and the same people have been talking about this issue since the inception of the healer threads in response to YoshiP telling healers to go play Ultimate and even before that.
And said people who have outed themselves have all eventually stopped visiting said threads and even if they do revisit it's not like they're going to re-admit to anything you would have to go check their post history if you want to see it for yourself though you might not even find it because of some pages getting nuked due to reports.
You would think I'm using hyperbole but it's verbatim, people have genuinely said those things, multiple people at that.

"most of them would be 'bad' or ranked extremely low": Remember that personal insult thing I mentioned above? Yeah, this is that. And no, most of them wouldn't be.

Reality is not an insult. The truth can be though if used in inappropriate times.
If you choose to believe in a statistical improbability that's on you.

Me personally, I have no static. I've still managed greens and blues despite this (and not running any add-ons myself to practice this with or determine this myself - just find myself on the abacus after the fact), and I could probably push myself further and would, if I had a consistent group to do the encounters with, make a healing plan with my co-healer, etc. As it is, I have to YOLO things and provide more of a buffer (more GCD heals, more careful use of oGCDs) since I'd rather parse low (I honestly don't care about parses for the most part anyway in a GENERAL sense) and clear the content than see a DPS eat dirt because they did the stupid and I didn't put an Adlo on them.

This is fair.
In general though you don't need a static to get a purple on any class you just need to understand the fight and not bend to bad play.
Only so much damage and it gets easier the more loot you get.
Purples are an eventuality static or no static.

I would contend that most, in fact, would not be "'bad' or ranked extremely low". It's all based on individual circumstances.

These circumstances are irrelevant in the way the game wants you to play and in the vacuum I was proposing they would be ranked under.

"In terms of the amount of trolls": So about those rebuttals instead of personal attacks...likening people to trolls for holding a position IS said personal attacks.

To deny any group does not have bad faith actors is you believing in another bad faith statistic. Nor was I implying that everyone who holds an opposition to me is a troll.

"Such players would do just fine with any change": As I've noted elsewhere, this is not true. This is, again, a case of "Just play easy content if you don't want to play our way", which is the 180 of Yoshi P's incendiary statement. How is "They can just play easy content" any better than him saying "You can just play harder content"?

Not sure where you've noted it.
Easy content is anything below ultimate so I fail to see the issue.
Bad players already do everything including ultimate, they just don't clear it.
It's better because you're making false equivalencies.

Yoshi wants to push a whole group of players into a corner to find enjoyment, my position pushes no one into any corner, is a benefit to everyone and even the players worse off skill wise are not effected heavily if at all and will just be treated like any other class now.

"they do not strive to improve in any particular way or direction that doesn't include their enjoyment": So...personal attacks. Yeah. Moving on.

Once again reality is not an attack.
I understand you're new to the discussion and haven't seen first hand said people admit to simply not pressing buttons because they don't look nice but those people exist and to equate referencing their existence to a personal attack is just a fallacy on your part.

"They don't run anything harder than normal already": This is abjectly false. Many of us smooth brains run Extremes and have as our typical end-game content. Some of us get into Savages (I started just this tier after playing for 9 years)

This is also true.

"and groups already do carry them": PERSONAL. ATTACKS.

YoshiP has admitted to making content designed to allow people not as skilled to be carried E.G. alliance content.
I'm not sure why you think referencing skill level or competence/incompetence is an attack on someone when used in relevant conversations points.

"What would change is people would more often recognize now how incompetent they are": PERSONAL. ATTACKS. Seriously, for a post saying "people rebut your points and don't call you names", this is a LOT of name-calling. I get you aren't EXPLICITLY naming me, but you're insulting groups that I'm at least incidentally associated with, and these insults are bad/baseless.

I can see why you would feel that way if a group you identify yourself with/in is being criticized but you need to be able to detach and look at things logically without letting emotions cloud judgement.
This is hard if you feel you're being attacked.

And even if they WEREN'T, they're still personal attacks and not arguing the points. Indeed, ALL of the times above you made these personal attacks, you often had a point to make. For example, you could have said "This won't matter to players doing easier content where optimization isn't needed and they may not want to engage in any". Instead, you said that first part, then insisted they were bad, lazy, etc. In the words of Ace Ventura: "Leave that part out next time!"

I'm not sure why you think I'm calling people lazy.
Some people simply "play" the game badly because the game wants you to play a specific way and that's not fun for them, not like anyone can stop them.
I infact was one of said people who played the game wrong and made my party aware that this was how I was going to be playing until it became a problem and that was in ultimate.
It has nothing to do with laziness though there are people in general who can be lazy.

I could word things differently but there's no reason to.
If someone takes offense to something so benign there's no point anyway.

No, that's you making a distinction so you can support one side over the other on a technicality when they ARE both doing the same thing, just one you agree with.

If you can't see the false equivalency there's not much point to this discussion.

I do say this genuinely, though:

I am sorry to hear that. I genuinely am sad that some of you just really don't like the game/healing as it is now. Which is why I have advocated changing it. But, there are limits to changes, and any good compromise ends with everyone getting some of what they want but neither side getting everything. At the end of the day, we should see to the needs of both sides and meet there with a compromise, not go whole hog one or the other; hence what I've been advocating for.

Agreed.

To be honest this conversation is a great display of why particular groups gravitate the way they do.
An "elitist" does not care if they're doing bad in any particular instance nor if they're called out because they know getting better is an eventuality and such a mindset allows for more intellectual freedom with other people around them.
A "casual" who does bad and is called out feels bad, and feels they're being discriminated against based on something they can't change because they do not believe they can get better they feel they're stuck in this one instance of failure on repeat and to reference said failure is to call back on all their failures of the past. Such a mindset only allows for people of similar traits to be amongst them as opposing traits will eventually "trigger" them.

Very similar to how A talent hires A talent and B talent hires C talent.

[Sebazy]

So about those personal attacks...

I think you're misunderstanding what he's saying. Language barrier thing perhaps?

[GrimGale]

What would constitute proof that players like or dislike healing? Population? Numbers? Is there some sort of metric we could use to see what the general response from the player base is in regards to Healer design?

[QooEr]

What would constitute proof that players like or dislike healing? Population? Numbers? Is there some sort of metric we could use to see what the general response from the player base is in regards to Healer design?

nothing short of a survey will do. enjoyment is qualitative, and the other measures are quantitative and theyre also affected by other variables.

[IDontPetLalas]

nothing short of a survey will do. enjoyment is qualitative, and the other measures are quantitative and theyre also affected by other variables.

i wouldn't dismiss population analysis out of hands, that with surveys could be quite useful since surveys are not so easy to design

[QooEr]

i wouldn't dismiss population analysis out of hands, that with surveys could be quite useful since surveys are not so easy to design

perhaps, but theres so many variables that muddy the picture. every party on duty finder *must* have a healer for instance, and even if its possible to clear with nonstandard comps the huge majority of people will use 2 healers for almost anything on PF that isnt a complete faceroll. adventurer in need is infamous for being wrong. subs are affected by so many factors that unsubbing because of healers alone would be practically impossible to point out. levels also dont mean much from the amount of people who just level things once for completion, etc.

i do wonder what quantitative metric could work for gauging healer enjoyment. queue times? PF fill times? perhaps something like luckybancho's main weapon ilvl? but the devs would have to be tracking every players armory chest for that to work, since just scanning lodestone pages like luckybancho is extremely prone to getting things wrong.

[Rolder50]

If we're talking Survey, this was posted on Reddit the other day; https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...er_job_survey/

It's more of a general survey and not specific to healing, but hey.