What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[jameseoakes]

Wait...are you talking about the people who supposedly hate on other players for liking or wanting to side with the Garleans?



There's a difference between not liking to character and "loving to hate" a character.

Ishikawa and crew were probably hoping for the latter, but instead got the former.

I still don't get how they thought he would go down well

[CrownySuccubus]

I still don't get how they thought he would go down well

Because like Teraq said, they tried every single shallow, surface-level form of "sympathy" they could think of, and failed to think about how it didn't make sense.

To quote him again:

While I have myself thought of him as depressed or neurodivergent, I fully agree that this didn't seem to be the intention at all. Both YoshiP and Ishikawa are pushing him as judging humanity in a "fair" which presumably implies rationality. The reason why I do headcanon him as depressed (as his Ancient self anyway) is so I can make sense of him, because I swear this character ping-pongs uncomfortably between extremes.
He cares a LOOOOOoooot (too much) about bad concepts like the unstable charybdis and the murder wolves, but he doesn't bother mourning the alkonosts they murdered? Meteion obviously wants to shield his fragile psyche from her sisters' report and is in extreme distress but he doesn't do anything to abort the entire thing?
He snaps (holes himself up into Ktisis), then he unsnaps (seems about ready to hand himself and Meteion in after the fight), then he snaps again (KAIROS), and then he... unsnaps again, as we are told he fought against the Final Days in earnest even though he resents humanity so much??? I'm sorry, but I don't believe wiping his memories of the last couple of days would suddenly not make him an edgy, resentful militant vegan. Am I supposed to believe his OMG-I-CANNOT-COPE-WITH-DEATH-IN-ANYWAY self would support the idea of Zodiark? The first, the second, and most egregiously of all, the infamous third sacrifice (which we have so little concrete information on, it regularly makes Venat supporters go on tangents even though it really is beside the point as far as her motivations go). I suppose Hermes, of all people, going with the third sacrifice is like... the single strongest headcanon evidence for the stupid Zodiark tempering having any effect at all on a character lmao.

Teraq is completely right. They wrote Hermes to be a character who "feels all the feels", but put almost no effort into thinking about how little sense it makes to hate that things have to die, but think that the killers' lives and opinions are more valid than the victims. He LOOOOOOVES life, but sides more with the alkohosts than what they murdered, and then sympathizes more with Meteion than the countless trillions she intends to murder.

There's a handful of posters - particularly on the lore forum - who have actively stalked and harassed some of those who have expressed a fondness for the game's antagonists. Usually only in the case of the Ascians and Garleans..

You once argued that the terms "stalking" and "harassing" is incorrectly used to refer to any type of legitimate criticism.

So, in the interest of making sure this isn't one of those cases, do you have links?

[Theodric]

You once argued that the terms "stalking" and "harassing" is incorrectly used to refer to any type of legitimate criticism.

So, in the interest of making sure this isn't one of those cases, do you have links?

I've spoken about it with various people in the past, so at least one poster from the lore forum can attest to have seen some of the stuff I have been sent over the years:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5779783

A lot of it is so grotesque that repeating or showing it here would likely result in a ban - to say nothing of the added difficultly of getting around the 'naming and shaming' rules.

You'll probably have to read the pages before that post to see the full context of the discussion.

From what I recall, other posters have spoken up on the issue within this very thread in passing to express similar experiences, though the thread is so large at this point that I do not feel compelled to comb through it to find such comments - nor would I expect anyone else to either.

[CrownySuccubus]

I've spoken about it with various people in the past, so at least one poster from the lore forum can attest to have seen some of the stuff I have been sent over the years:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5779783

A lot of it is so grotesque that repeating or showing it here would likely result in a ban - to say nothing of the added difficultly of getting around the 'naming and shaming' rules.

You'll probably have to read the pages before that post to see the full context of the discussion.

From what I recall, other posters have spoken up on the issue within this very thread in passing to express similar experiences, though the thread is so large at this point that I do not feel compelled to comb through it to find such comments - nor would I expect anyone else to either.

On the subject on the death threats: assuming good faith, sorry you had to go through that.

But, reading through that thread, I have to agree with what most others are saying. Unfortunately, your accusations are way too broad and vague, and if I'm understanding correctly, seem to have happened primarily on Reddit.

I'm bringing this up because this seems to be something you constantly repeat on the forums as a primary motivator behind your distaste with certain segments of the fandom and their influence on the game and community, but from all outside observances, it's a matter of taking your word for it. Even with full sincerity assumed in this specific case, however, the culprit seems to be only ONE person on Reddit, which is not enough to go on. It's hard to actually see the relevant connection of unacceptable poster behavior and some sort of greater hypocrisy/fallacious actions within the forum community itself. There's no denying that such toxicity exists....but I'm struggling to see greater effect on the discourse of the game.

Again, there's no excuse to go through death threats, but it's hard to differentiate between the validity of those death threats and the ones the FFXIV writers have claimed to receive.

[Theodric]

On the subject on the death threats: assuming good faith, sorry you had to go through that.

But, reading through that post, I have to agree with what most others are saying. Unfortunately, your accusations are way too broad and vague, and likewise, seem to have happened on Reddit.

I'm bringing this up because this seems to be something you constantly repeat on the forums as a primary motivator behind your distaste with certain segments of the fandom and their influence on the game and community, but from all outside observances, it's a matter of taking your word for it. Even in this specific case, however, the culprit seems to be only ONE person on Reddit, which is not enough to go on.

Again, there's no excuse to go through death threats, but it's hard to differentiate between the validity of those death threats and the ones the FFXIV writers have claimed to receive.

You're free to believe whatever you so wish. I'm not sure why you feel as if you have to take 'my' word for it when multiple posters within the thread have spoken up as a witness, though. Are you suggesting that they are worthy of doubt as well?

Nor have I ever downplayed the death threats that the writers have received. I have to admit, I'm not sure where you're getting that from - unless you're referring to me speaking up against the attempt to stifle criticism on the basis that the development team were sent knives as a threat in the mail? My point with that was that something happening on the Japanese side of the community is no reason to deny European and American players the opportunity to critique the development team.

Which...is very different to someone wanting to discuss something they like in the game without being insulted or threatened.

Either way, I'm not posting personal details as evidence here to ensure that the issue does not worsen. Nor do I have the time or desire to go back over the years to find the many threads on the lore forum where any positive mention of Garlemald resulted in horrific accusations of being a 'Nazi' or 'genocide apologist'.

[CrownySuccubus]

You're free to believe whatever you so wish. I'm not sure why you feel as if you have to take 'my' word for it when multiple posters within the thread have spoken up as a witness, though. Are you suggesting that they are worthy of doubt as well?

I mean, dude, multiple devs confirmed to have gotten death threats about various disatisfactions with the game, and you expressed doubt that those were real threats and not real criticism. I don't see how that's any different from another group confirming the same.

Nor have I ever downplayed the death threats that the writers have received. I have to admit, I'm not sure where you're getting that from - unless you're referring to me speaking up against the attempt to stifle criticism on the basis that the development team were sent knives as a threat in the mail? My point with that was that something happening on the Japanese side of the community is no reason to deny European and American players the opportunity to critique the development team.

Which...is very different to someone wanting to discuss something they like in the game without being insulted or threatened.

No, it's exactly the same thing. You don't want to discuss issues with the game without being insulted or harassed, and the devs want to work on the game without being threatened or harassed. Likewise, we can apply the same logic about the "Japanese community" here -- whatever handful of players (your words) sent you or anyone else death threats don't bear any relevance on discussions outside of the topics or threads they occur in.

Either way, I'm not posting personal details as evidence here to ensure that the issue does not worsen. Nor do I have the time or desire to go back over the years to find the many threads on the lore forum where any positive mention of Garlemald resulted in horrific accusations of being a 'Nazi' or 'genocide apologist'.

I mean, liking Garlemald is one thing. They look cool, act tough, and have cool machines. That doesn't make anyone a Nazi.

But, if someone (speaking generally here) were to say that they thought Garlemald was right or that their actions were laudable, that'd definitely be cause for concern.

I'm not sure what was supposedly said, so I make no accusations. But, generally speaking, it's one thing to say that the Empire is cool. It's another thing entirely to say that the Empire is cool because they conquer what they deem inferior races and think only the strong should survive and rule.

[Lauront]

Either way, I'm not posting personal details as evidence here to ensure that the issue does not worsen. Nor do I have the time or desire to go back over the years to find the many threads on the lore forum where any positive mention of Garlemald resulted in horrific accusations of being a 'Nazi' or 'genocide apologist'.

That, plus several of these sort of incidents were reported via moderation and removed, so are no longer there.

[CrownySuccubus]

That, plus several of these sort of incidents were reported via moderation and removed, so are no longer there.

In that case, those people are not an issue, and the community/mods have made it clear that it will not be tolerated.

In other words, we seem to be fine with discussing whatever without that riff-raff being any sort of factor whatsoever.

[Theodric]

That, plus several of these sort of incidents were reported via moderation and removed, so are no longer there.

Yep. That's another issue with compiling evidence - and ironically results in Venat style gaslighting after that fact. I've seen a few posters have something they've said deleted by a moderator (or even been banned for it) only to later turn up and pretend as if it did not happen.

I've seen some of those social media posts where someone will meticulously save everything and neatly compile it as evidence. Though that would certainly work in my favour, it requires considerable time and effort on my part. It's energy I'd rather spend on more enjoyable pursuits.

'Why bring it up, then?' is the usual retort at such a juncture. At which point I will point to this very thread. Sometimes it's good to know that people aren't alone in thinking or experiencing something.