i'm sick and tired of the excuse for not having unique or varied jobs

[Dyvid]

I would love to see a HW classic server just to see people's thoughts on pre 4.0 battle system and Job design.

[VentVanitas]

I would pay double my sub (so pretty much a FFXI sub) just to see what 3.X combat is like. With how many players that talk about HW so fondly, it only has me curious.

[VirusOnline]

Going through these as I have labelled them, the bold seems you just have an issue with role actions, not the job identities themselves.
For Brotherhood, considering what you quoted was about mitigation, Brotherhood has no mitigation properties.
Now, the italics. Every job has some form of raid dps increase, except the selfish DPS, those are just raid damage increases in disguise. I hope you realise that, with an argument like that, it doesn't matter how you swing it, you won't be happy.



And this is why, if you give one job something the others do not have, that job then becomes required. To get around this, you give all the necessary jobs this thing, just giving them a unique twist for the job. Suddenly, you have a job identity that doesn't exclude a job.



You don't minimise META by making everything unique, that just creates a stronger META where jobs will be more favourable for certain fights. Whilst I know this is what some people want, that is not SE mindset when balancing jobs.

i don't think you read my entire argument correctly at all

[GrizzlyTank]

Pretty much just two core ways a class/job can be designed in this game. Fixed rotation or rng rotation.

RDM and Dancer are the only two jobs we have which leans into rng rotation, rdm more-so since it's rng affects the frequency of their burst phase.

To diversify the jobs just a bit they could simply change the charge bars of various jobs to not give a consistent increase every usage. Like something that charges 5 on use will now charge 4-7 instead or 10 on crit, and so on.

[Nizzi]

I would love to see a HW classic server just to see people's thoughts on pre 4.0 battle system and Job design.

I'd pay for that happily.

[Mikey_R]

i don't think you read my entire argument correctly at all

You don't care about balance, just something unique the job brings. The example you gave for Reaper was everyone being able to use the teleport hole, however, how would that work? Are you going to have everyone have a separate action in order to use it? What if multiple jobs have similar things, did you want a unique action for all of them as well? Probably not, so, say, combine them into one action, which then comes with the problem of, if multiple ones come at once, which one will activate? This hasn't even considered the possibility of multiple Reapers. You could in theory have the reaper pull everyone to that spot, but I shouldn't have to explain how that is a bad idea.

So, what unique things could there be for other jobs? You could have an action that generates a resource, like MP, but, how do you balance usage? If you balance around having this MP battery, if you suddenly don't have this MP battery, you get screwed over, if you balance around not having this MP battery, then what is the point?

You could say it generates the job specific gauge, but again, how does that work, add 10 gauge? So Warrior can get off more Fell Cleaves, but Monk doesn't work like that, so you can say it adds 1 Chakra, but Monk isn't designed to generate Chakra that quickly, unless Brotherhood is up, at which point the resource gen is essentially pointless, but then there is WHM where the resource generation is based off of time, what is it going to do then, take away some cooldown time? How about jobs with 2 gauges? Would you fill up both gauges with Reaper or just the Soul Gauge? How about Red Mage? The only way to be fair there would be both. Do you see how much of a mess this has become?

If you have other suggestions, I am all ears.

[Dzian]

.So, what unique things could there be for other jobs? You could have an action that generates a resource, like MP, but, how do you balance usage? If you balance around having this MP battery, if you suddenly don't have this MP battery, you get screwed over, if you balance around not having this MP battery, then what is the point?

Easy allow it to change jobs in some way.. if a job had an ability that granted MP refresh to the party for example while it may bot be mandatory for the party to fu cation you could allow it to change up other jobs..

That MP refresh might allow a black mage to extend there astral fire phase and squeeze out more oomph for example. Or allow a paladin to bomb out more holy spirits in its magic phase.or a drk to do whateverver they do with there mp. (Not levelled it but think there mp is something to do with there dps.) While all 3 jobs would still function perfectly fine without it. It would spice things up a bit more than just a here's a 5% damage buff.

The reason everything feels the same is because nothing ever changes... you can take any composition of 8. Switch around any number of them and the party will still function the exact same way..

Old Ast and its ewer card would have been much better if it did this. What made it crap was it had no effect on any job that could use it. So it was just royal road fodder same as spire.

[Azuri]

Pretty much just two core ways a class/job can be designed in this game. Fixed rotation or rng rotation.

RDM and Dancer are the only two jobs we have which leans into rng rotation, rdm more-so since it's rng affects the frequency of their burst phase.

To diversify the jobs just a bit they could simply change the charge bars of various jobs to not give a consistent increase every usage. Like something that charges 5 on use will now charge 4-7 instead or 10 on crit, and so on.

You have no clue how RDM plays if this is your take. The "procs" are such low priority. I have been using pretty much every melee on the exact same GCD across hundreds of pulls in savage. Despite appearances, it is a very static job.

We've actually had those variable gauges. Like SAM getting more Kenki on successful positionals. And you guessed it right - it was deemed too punishing and removed.

[RitsukoSonoda]

You have no clue how RDM plays if this is your take. The "procs" are such low priority. I have been using pretty much every melee on the exact same GCD across hundreds of pulls in savage. Despite appearances, it is a very static job.

We've actually had those variable gauges. Like SAM getting more Kenki on successful positionals. And you guessed it right - it was deemed too punishing and removed.

Because when devs make job mechanics that reward players for doing things they should normally be doing anyway the players not doing so start complaining that they're being "punished" for being bad at the game...

[Mikey_R]

Easy allow it to change jobs in some way.. if a job had an ability that granted MP refresh to the party for example while it may bot be mandatory for the party to fu cation you could allow it to change up other jobs..

That MP refresh might allow a black mage to extend there astral fire phase and squeeze out more oomph for example. Or allow a paladin to bomb out more holy spirits in its magic phase.or a drk to do whateverver they do with there mp. (Not levelled it but think there mp is something to do with there dps.) While all 3 jobs would still function perfectly fine without it. It would spice things up a bit more than just a here's a 5% damage buff.

The reason everything feels the same is because nothing ever changes... you can take any composition of 8. Switch around any number of them and the party will still function the exact same way..

Old Ast and its ewer card would have been much better if it did this. What made it crap was it had no effect on any job that could use it. So it was just royal road fodder same as spire.

Unless you want to change how jobs have functioned, as it stands right now, it will have no effect on BLM. AF prevents MP regen, which I believe also included outside MP regen sources. If we assume it did, it would need to regen at least 1600 MP for an additional cast of Fire 1, maybe a Fire 4 (It won't be Paradox as you don't have the Paradox stack). Would this be a DPS increase? In a vacuum, yes, however, it requires your MP battery to be alert in knowing where you are in your rotation. It's a waste if it is in UI after all and if you use it too late in AF, it would essentially be wasted as it won't increase your MP enough by the time you need it.

This then comes onto the point of, this would essentially be something that requires voice comms to align properly in order to get maximum usage. So, the question here is, should the use of comms allow you to have this advantage? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here.

As for PLD, if you add in an extra Holy Spirit, you then delay Blade of Valor, which would be a DPS loss and you further push PLD outside of the ideal 60 second rotation time (whether that is something you want to keep considering, I do not know, however for max DPS in aligning raid buffs, PLD already drops 1 Atonement to better align at 60 seconds).

As for DRK, it has never, in any iteration allowed any MP gain effect from any job other than itself to affect it. MP on a DRK is effectively a gauge on other jobs, like Kenki or Ninki. Currently it's only use is to use Flood/Edge of Shadow to keep Darkside up and it is used on the Blackest Night for mitigation. In this case, you would need to restore 3000 MP to get an extra cast of any of their MP abilities, which is an even steeper price than BLM for less potency per MP.

If we now assume it is a DPS gain for all the above jobs, then you create a situation where, if you want to bring this job, you have to bring this other one, and this one, and that one so that you can benefit the most out of the buff. If you then create different scenarios for unique things a job can bring to a fight, you then have to weigh up each possibility chances are, you will have a comp that far outdoes any other, which then makes fights alot easier. This sort of thing was seen back in HW with the piercing Meta, Dragoon + MCH + BRD was really powerful, so strong infact they traded away the caster for it. SB then went the other way and made BRD/MCH weaker with the only reason to being them being, they were MP/TP batteries. Which was then really annoying, especially as a MNK when you run out of TP, despite optimum invigorate usage just because you either didn't have the TP battery, or they just didn't use it.