Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

[EaraGrace]

I just find it incredibly convenient that the writers managed to make it work where the protagonists are able to not only create a branching timeline but do so where both timelines people(main cast that is) are effectively safe and fine. Yet now fast forward to this expansion and all of a sudden all of this just….isn’t possible. All of a sudden it’s the ancients are doomed no matter what and there’s no way time travel would help. Which is a bit ironic considering one of the main themes in not only this game but also the ff series as a whole is defying fate. This is something even the twins reference in UT saying “they will defy fate no matter the cost.” Well….why doesn’t this apply twofold?

Because traveling through time does not by itself mean that you have solved the problem. Graha didn’t just go to the last and tell everyone what was going to happen, he followed an exact plan. One that leveraged the knowledge he had to allow for maximum impact. Going back to the Ancient world doesn’t surmount the inherent problems that make untangling the Meteion-Dynamis knot difficult. That’s why people are saying it’s not going to work out like that. And on thr theme angle, that’s your opinion and I respect that.

[thegreatonemal]

Fair point. I do agree that Venat - and Hermes - are to blame for pretty much everything bleak that has every happened in the game's story. It's a consequence of trying to tie everything together instead of allowing each piece of the puzzle to thrive as its own thing. It rids various characters and factions of their agency.

I'd also note that nobody is under any obligation to approve of Venat's actions and the strange insistence that Venat is being 'attacked' for engaging in genocide is - quite frankly - bizarre to me. More so the deceptive attempt to pretend as if those of us criticising her have not consistently said 'let's agree to disagree'.

Not even Venat herself discounts that a lot of suffering in the world is due to her actions. Our problem with you and the others trying to criticize her is the notion that she committed genocide in a world where souls are recycled over and over. That's bizarre to the rest of us since those people also believe that had Venat said more, because she did tell people they would have somehow found a way around the fact that they can't even reach Metion to stop her, and can't fight her due to their own biology. You can not like what she did, but the world and the universe itself is alive because of what she did. The majority of the people on her world chose a slow death, hiding behind their newly created god. Should they decide the fact of everyone left in the universe or even their own world?

[KizuyaKatogami]

Not even Venat herself discounts that a lot of suffering in the world is due to her actions. Our problem with you and the others trying to criticize her is the notion that she committed genocide in a world where souls are recycled over and over. That's bizarre to the rest of us since those people also believe that had Venat said more, because she did tell people they would have somehow found a way around the fact that they can't even reach Metion to stop her, and can't fight her due to their own biology. You can not like what she did, but the world and the universe itself is alive because of what she did. The majority of the people on her world chose a slow death, hiding behind their newly created god. Should they decide the fact of everyone left in the universe or even their own world?

How were they hiding? They thought the threat was gone. Venat was the only one with the knowledge that it wasn’t and she said nothing to prevent it all. What would you have them do exactly? Somehow figure out that there was still some intergalactic space flea? They didn’t choose a slow death. It wasn’t a choice. That’s beyond bizarre thinking. Literally look up the definition of genocide. Because by your description, the rejoinings are in the same boat. They aren’t genocide because the souls are recycled LOL.

[Theodric]

Yeah, both the Rejoinings and the Sundering fit the definition of genocide on multiple levels. It's also pretty strange to deliberately force people into a corner where the lives of their loved ones are at stake only to blame them for...doing everything possible in order to survive.

The logic deployed by Hermes and Venat isn't too different to that of the guy responsible for the chaos in the Saw movies. Placing people in horrific situations where they are only considered 'worthy' if they claw their way out of some gruesome trap, albeit only in a narrow and contrived 'correct' solution to the puzzle.

[Rulakir]

Given this entire discussion requires dismissing that whole cutscene you’re quoting. Maybe not wise to bring that up as an example of “accepting reality.”

Do you believe:

1) Venat strolled through Amaurot during the Final Days and did nothing as she watched others being slaughtered in the streets?
2) That the Final Days were still occurring after the second sacrifice?
3) That Venat sundered the world before her battle with Zodiark and not as Hydaelyn?

If none of these things are accurate, then why would I believe her interaction with the Ancient strawmen is? There are reasons that cutscene is dismissed.

Since the Omega quests just come out and say that the resistance to the Dynamis transformation is almost totally random and not strongly correlated to one's life conditions or strength of character, the entire idea that the sundering was necessary to create a world of people that could withstand despair and existential oblivion through their inurement to suffering basically becomes moot.

I hadn't even thought of this. The Social Darwinism messaging needed to be walked back, but in doing so Venat's actions become even further unjustifiable.

Our problem with you and the others trying to criticize her is the notion that she committed genocide in a world where souls are recycled over and over.

Good to know the rejoinings are no longer considered genocide!

[KizuyaKatogami]

Yeah, both the Rejoinings and the Sundering fit the definition of genocide on multiple levels. It's also pretty strange to deliberately force people into a corner where the lives of their loved ones are at stake only to blame them for...doing everything possible in order to survive.

The logic deployed by Hermes and Venat isn't too different to that of the guy responsible for the chaos in the Saw movies. Placing people in horrific situations where they are only considered 'worthy' if they claw their way out of some gruesome trap, albeit only in a narrow and contrived 'correct' solution to the puzzle.

Do you want to play a game Emet?
You have 59 minutes, and 59 seconds to secure a solution to Meteion and the Final Days
Each second that ticks by brings the chained up hydaelyn one step closer to sundering the planet and ending your people as you knew them.

[AwesomeJr44]

Our problem with you and the others trying to criticize her is the notion that she committed genocide in a world where souls are recycled over and over.

Do you believe:Good to know the rejoinings are no longer considered genocide!

That's actually a good point. If souls are recycled, why are the rejoinings wrong? If a rejoining kills someone, they'll be back anyways so why not just rejoin everything? Seeing as no one actually dies, it would only be a net positive once they come back. The only two conclusions that can be drawn from this is 1) killing is still wrong, and Venat committed genocide or 2) killing' ISN'T wrong and the rejoinings were justifed.

[Iscah]

I just find it incredibly convenient that the writers managed to make it work where the protagonists are able to not only create a branching timeline but do so where both timelines people(main cast that is) are effectively safe and fine. Yet now fast forward to this expansion and all of a sudden all of this just….isn’t possible. All of a sudden it’s the ancients are doomed no matter what and there’s no way time travel would help.

Time travel will not help them in this current timeline, where the events they lived through have been lived through. They happened. We cannot make them un-happen to this timeline's Ancients.

The only thing we could achieve is creating a second copy of those people who might have a happier life than the ones we know. And as I said above, whether you want it or not, the basic character of the WoL as written by the devs has gone to the past to observe what happened and come back to their present day to apply that knowledge.

[Rulakir]

I forgot to mention that, as far as I know, Venat is also the only one confirmed to have destroyed souls. Not only those of her summoners (and herself), but every soul lost to the second Final Days as the sundering made mankind more susceptible to the Song of Oblivion. Even worse if the theory is true that if a Source soul is destroyed then all of its shards are too. It makes me wonder if people were just getting Thanos dusted on the shards with every blasphemy that manifested on the Source.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Time travel will not help them in this current timeline, where the events they lived through have been lived through. They happened. We cannot make them un-happen to this timeline's Ancients.

The only thing we could achieve is creating a second copy of those people who might have a happier life than the ones we know. And as I said above, whether you want it or not, the basic character of the WoL as written by the devs has gone to the past to observe what happened and come back to their present day to apply that knowledge.

We didnt just observe though. We directly interacted with them. We werent some invisible entity or viewing this through the echo. We were literally there, interacting with them, and we are still doing so now in pandaemonium.