Just remove healers.

[Nadda]

You completely ignore that you do both at the same time in almost every content at almost every time.
It is generally not "I can either Glare and let the dps die OR heal the dps and yaaaaayyyyy I contributed more with my heals <3". It is "I Glare while healing that dps" - which results in all healers easily contributing as much as a tank and roughly 2/3 of a dps. It has already been factored in that healing someone is preferable for group performance than letting them die for a dps GCD.

You do both at the same in almost every situation. The better you are at playing healer the easier this is to understand and execute.
A healer that still lacks practice will frequently chose to drop dps even if they could have fulfilled their primary role without it. There is nothing confusing about stating the obvious, nobody here every argued for refusing to heal at all costs because "muh Glare" or said that it's preferable to use Glare and let a dps die.
You and Silverbane simply ignore something very fundamental: healers heal and dps at the same time - their toolkits were designed for it. Which is why their active dps contribution is far from "miniscule". Fulfilling their primary role while dpsing is factored in with the abundant oGCD/ dps neutral heals they have.

I'm not ignoring this. How is it I can highlight the fact that Healers need to contribute DPS same as healing and you reach this conclusion is beyond me.
I've spoken in normal English and prefaced that is not what I meant. IN THAT VERY POST!

It is quite and supremely obvious you continue to dps while dishing out your healing. Like where's the cognitive dissonance here.

It's like you people take a sliver of what I say and just ignore the rest of it. WHETHER you want to consider it minuscule or not I could care less this is semantics!

The whole thread is centered around "Removing Healers" right? I'm trying to explain what we contribute.

Do you HONESTLY Think that any self respecting healer is going to either completely dedicate themselves to either just completely DPSing or completely Healing??? WHERE AND WHEN Did I give you that idea.

It's preposterous. I suggested no such thing. Like it literally takes five minutes or less to read what I wrote. Why would you spin it in your head such a ridiculous notion?

I've seriously had it with this level of misrepresentation.

[IDontPetLalas]

I'm not ignoring this. How is it I can highlight the fact that Healers need to contribute DPS same as healing and you reach this conclusion is beyond me.
I've spoken in normal English and prefaced that is not what I meant. IN THAT VERY POST!

It is quite and supremely obvious you continue to dps while dishing out your healing. Like where's the cognitive dissonance here.

It's like you people take a sliver of what I say and just ignore the rest of it. WHETHER you want to consider it minuscule or not I could care less this is semantics!

The whole thread is centered around "Removing Healers" right? I'm trying to explain what we contribute.

Do you HONESTLY Think that any self respecting healer is going to either completely dedicate themselves to either just completely DPSing or completely Healing??? WHERE AND WHEN Did I give you that idea.

It's preposterous. I suggested no such thing. Like it literally takes five minutes or less to read what I wrote. Why would you spin it in your head such a ridiculous notion?

I've seriously had it with this level of misrepresentation.

here is just one preposterous statement that you made

People I believe who are DPS role orientated who play Healer on occasion I believe are more concerned about DPS parsing and rotations, but this play style doesn't suit a healer. The reason we have 100% access to all of our buttons is precisely how to use them tactically and most efficiently. Our contribution to DPS is minuscule for this purpose. The idea is to act selflessly that's the mindset of every person who picks up healing as a main job role. Is to help. So if the fight does less outgoing damage we can push these scenarios to greater limits.

first of all, you have no way at all of knowing whether someone who mains a dps and who plays a healer as an alt is more concerned about their dps than healing. you just made a judgement there.

you made another judgement on how our skills being used since that requires a certain degree of decision making- ok, fine- that like means because sometimes more healing may be required, otherwise dps is fine. saying that our dps is 'miniscule'? uh, no. thanks, I don't want to have to whale away for a solid 15 minutes to kill a single mob for a quest, for example. more like 'lower than a DPS- closer to a tank".

but then we get to the real winner here, the idea that healers are acting selflessly--- we are not ministering angels, each job should be there to work as a team, and think of the other members of the group- and each job should be fun in its own way.

[Nadda]

first of all, you have no way at all of knowing whether someone who mains a dps and who plays a healer as an alt is more concerned about their dps than healing. you just made a judgement there.

you made another judgement on how our skills being used since that requires a certain degree of decision making- ok, fine- that like means because sometimes more healing may be required, otherwise dps is fine. saying that our dps is 'miniscule'? uh, no. thanks, I don't want to have to whale away for a solid 15 minutes to kill a single mob for a quest, for example. more like 'lower than a DPS- closer to a tank".

but then we get to the real winner here, the idea that healers are acting selflessly--- we are not ministering angels, each job should be there to work as a team, and think of the other members of the group- and each job should be fun in its own way.

You're not even the same person but very well...
Apologies are in order. I'm sorry for using the word 'minuscule' it was a poor choice of words. I'd also like to apologize for my baseless presumptions about DPS players.

Had I known it was something people would latch onto to become the bane of my existence I'd have considered a different choice of words. For sake of moving the conversation forward in this endeavor, I'll be sure to use your approved vernacular of 'Healers do less damage than DPS, however nonetheless their DPS contributions are still meaningful and are more in line with DPS margins with Tanks' seems to take longer to say it that way but I will endeavor to accommodate the masses sensitivities in the future.

Seeing how you've made plain you are a supporter of all members of the team offering their own equal contributions and are averse to harsh and baseless judgments, perhaps you can be of use in championing my cause.

This thread is called 'Just Remove Healers' it is saying that my role as in the one I play... being a Healer more precisely, that there are those in the support/argument/suggestion that my Role (Healer), my personal contribution to the Team is worth less than that of Tanks and DPS (one could even say 'minuscule') and by transitive properties that my favorite role (healer)... Should face the ultimate judgment and be 'Removed' from the game.

Now I know you may not be keen on helping me... but you've just made it very clear. No, Very plain to see that, you would surely be against such notions. Could you please draft something up in that regard? Since you felt compelled to intervene in my case, this should be short work for you... please I'm begging you! For all the healers here and at home, please?

[ASkellington]

This thread is called 'Just Remove Healers' it is saying that my role as in the one I play... being a Healer more precisely, that there are those in the support/argument/suggestion that my Role (Healer), my personal contribution to the Team is worth less than that of Tanks and DPS (one could even say 'minuscule') and by transitive properties that my favorite role (healer)... Should face the ultimate judgment and be 'Removed' from the game.

Now I know you may not be keen on helping me... but you've just made it very clear. No, Very plain to see that, you would surely be against such notions. Could you please draft something up in that regard? Since you felt compelled to intervene in my case, this should be short work for you... please I'm begging you! For all the healers here and at home, please?

The point of this post is less that the OP wants healers to be removed and more that if the devs are not going to put effort into the job and making it fun, meaningful and actually wanted/needed in content like they say healers should be (EX, Savage, Ultimate at least) remove it from the game.

And yeah I share that sentiment.

All classes in this game deserve the same treatment of BLM/RDM where they have core identities that work, are fun to play for people who like those playstyles and and a sound foundation that is built upon over the course of several expansions.

They have not done this at all with the healer role.

People who liked SCH/AST in SB (much like people who like SMN previous to EW) had their entire job overhauled in ways they did not ask for nor wanted and were pretty much told to get used to it, you aren't getting it back completely alienating the previous MAINS of those jobs.

It took them until 5.3 to address AST's mana problems. It took them until 6.1 to make Affalus Misery a dps neutral ability.

It looks completely poor on the dev's part that issues healers have are not addressed as quickly, are swept under the rug, or not even understood.

Bottom line is, no we in fact do not want healers to be removed from the game. We love the role, its why we chose it.

However, what we want is for the devs to treat the role as if it actually MEANS something to them and not something to push new players through content. And if they aren't going to do that, then what the hells is the point in having it as a role in the game if it isn't going to be fun for the very people THEY DECIDED TO ABANDON IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[Nadda]

All Healer jobs use an entirely different role expression to Tanking or DPS, making them feel disjointed.
Healing, however, is largely expressed through GCD healing (that is never actually used in higher levels of play), and all of them have a near-identical, static GCD rotation - Press Dia/Bio/E. Dosis/Combust, then press Glare/Broil/Dosis/Malefic 11-12 times, repeat ad mortem.

Healing becomes less complex the better you are at it.
Compared to learning Tank or DPS jobs, where the experience starts simple and you gradually learn to utilize more of your kit in interesting ways, the peak of complexity for healing jobs is at level 4. As you learn to use your kit, the base experience actually becomes less complex and less interesting

Healers are unnecessary.
Encounter design in this game is very rigid with almost no unpredictable damage spikes.

Original point:
The current state of healers is outright unplayable. I cannot convince anyone I know to play them. They are so incredibly mind-numbingly painful to play that finding someone who both has sufficient experience with the role to be capable of clearing the content, and does not outright refuse to play the role, is impossible.
Just remove healers and give Tanks/DPS enough defensive tools to manage without in Extreme and harder content. Stop making us suffer.

These were the core tenants of the argument.

You have added.

making it fun, meaningful and actually wanted/needed in content like they say healers should be (EX, Savage, Ultimate at least) remove it from the game.

Let's just say this is attached to the first point All Healer jobs use an entirely different role expression to Tanking or DPS, making them feel disjointed.

And let's examine what you actually mean by this first. What do you want healers to look like exactly?
In other words, what would make them fun, meaningful, and actually wanted/needed? I need to know what this 'fun' is. When was it fun, What made it fun, Why it is fun, and How can we constructively make a better system.

Now I've played majority White mage since HW so I don't really know much about the other side of things and how Scholar and Astrologian operated before. I know for the most part since I've been playing at least my kit has always remained the same with a few adages to it... but with every expansion, it seems that it plays slightly different each time.

There are of course things I miss. Stormblood was probably my favorite incarnation for White mage. I liked Aero 3, Because stacking dots is satisfying, but so is applying multiple dots at once, I liked how engaging it was to use my lilies, I liked that holding on to them longer would mean I could use them to increase healing potency and reduce cooldown timers. (to be continued)

[Nadda]

(continued) My main issue with this thread is players are disgruntled, but being disgruntled isn't conducive to the cause. It is a reductive argument to say Healers should be removed because something changed instead of asking for the changes you want in the first place. More like defeatist even, you'd be cutting your nose off despite your face. It gives up without any expression as to what people wanted and you can't garner support from Healers at large if you're saying they are worthless and should be removed. Why not conjure up reasons they should stay instead?

The game as it stands currently does need healers regardless of what anyone says. It could always be in a better place. We need to accept the two realities. Chiefly Healers aren't going anywhere. Second, what can we do constructively to enact the change we want.

(Edit) Also, keep in mind as the game advances and there are more jobs added we cannot avoid the level of parity that will come from their addition. So eventually jobs as we've already seen will have to borrow similar elements. This is the cost of balance. So a good place to look towards getting more unique changes may actually be petitioning for no job additions. This way the Dev team can give the focus to the jobs that already exist. This notion already would benefit your cause.

[Renathras]

<points>

While part of this is just us agreeing to disagree (I do not, in fact, find 1-2-3 static rotation like MCH to be more engaging than 1-1-1 on WHM, personally; it's the other stuff that MCH has besides it that makes it at all engaging); why are you talking about "world 1st scenario"?

.

About GCD healing: I was replying to YOU SAYING that we should have more GCD healing, my dude! I was saying I AGREE WITH YOU, and now, by disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing...with yourself? o.O

.

When did this conversation become about world firsters, who are probably something like 0.001% of the playerbase? (Probably a bit more than that, but still SMALL)

The bulk of the game isn't made up of that. Most people that run Savages or even Ultimates aren't racing for world first. World first people are going to hyper-optimize anyway and likely can play any Job they want and get the results they want with it, swap Jobs based on fight needs within tiers, are probably all omni-90s and well geared at that, and are going to play something based on the needs of the group, not aesthetics, fun factor, or rotational issues. So that shouldn't be relevant to this discussion. And it...really isn't. When I say the words "more often", using an example of 0.001% of the playerbase doesn't really contest "more often".

And the funny thing is, you did this just after saying a 0.5-1.0% change won't be a problem when THESE ARE THE FEW PEOPLE in the game to whom that change would potentially dictate which Job they drop or bring.

.

I do agree utility is important in prog. But we weren't talking specifically about prog, either. Note that you have to use special/limited cases in each of your arguments while I'm talking about healing on the whole.

.

SGE is less clunky than SCH (but, other than AST, what isn't?), but SCH has some benefits over SCH that can make healing easier on it. It really depends on the needs of the specific encounter.

[Hellebore_Ghrian]

(continued) My main issue with this thread is players are disgruntled, but being disgruntled isn't conducive to the cause. It is a reductive argument to say Healers should be removed because something changed instead of asking for the changes you want in the first place.

The healer forum is full of topics asking for changes, trying to give solutions and ideas to improve the current state of healers. But these topics were almost never acknowledged and questions about it were mainly ignored by Yoshi-P in the LLs (I already posted some of his quotes).

So what's left now is the fatigue and frustration that gave rise to these kinds of posts.

[WaxSw]

While part of this is just us agreeing to disagree (I do not, in fact, find 1-2-3 static rotation like MCH to be more engaging than 1-1-1 on WHM, personally; it's the other stuff that MCH has besides it that makes it at all engaging); why are you talking about "world 1st scenario"?

Because in the original message I replied to you brought that up?

For all the moaning about ShB and EW RDM, and EW SMN, being "too easy", why is it that so many Ultimate clears have SMNs and/or RDMs in them? Why so many world firsts? Why so many Savage statics?

About GCD healing: I was replying to YOU SAYING that we should have more GCD healing, my dude! I was saying I AGREE WITH YOU, and now, by disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing...with yourself? o.O

No? I'm saying that a focus on a more GCD healing present rotation is not a good aproach, quoting myself "...healing by deffinition has a cap of usefulness and as such a GCD healing rotation only leads to a very unpleasant downtime gameplay and punishing players that know their role"

If the game's damage is as scripted as it is a GCD healing rotation is not good because its not always useful and doesn't tackle the problem of downtime activities being extremely boring and repetitive, healers should be fun at all times not only when the party takes damage

And the funny thing is, you did this just after saying a 0.5-1.0% change won't be a problem when THESE ARE THE FEW PEOPLE in the game to whom that change would potentially dictate which Job they drop or bring.

My point with all of that is precisely that all the discussion of balance with the whole 7dots vs 1 nuke 1 dot you said is meaningless, people who want to optimize to the point of 0.5-1% of healer damage is breaking the run wont care if they have to juggle 7 dots to do it and for the vast majority of playerbase fun gameplay is way more important and that is what the game is lacking, quoting myself again "first make all the jobs more diverse and fun and then balance them". A fun unbalanced job can be balanced much easier than a balanced boring job become fun.

SGE is less clunky than SCH (but, other than AST, what isn't?), but SCH has some benefits over SCH that can make healing easier on it. It really depends on the needs of the specific encounter.

And Sage has too, also depends on the encounter. What it doesn't change on the encounter is that SCH has to pay a tax for using a part of its kit and in order to maximize their contribution has to plan their resources more than a Sage, which is why is more complex because, while Sage can have as a general tip something as simple as "Use kerachole on cooldown" Sch has to think if Soil is really worth it, its not much but its there.

[IDontPetLalas]

You're not even the same person but very well..
Apologies are in order. I'm sorry for using the word 'minuscule' it was a poor choice of words. I'd also like to apologize for my baseless presumptions about DPS players.

Had I known it was something people would latch onto to become the bane of my existence I'd have considered a different choice of words. For sake of moving the conversation forward in this endeavor, I'll be sure to use your approved vernacular of 'Healers do less damage than DPS, however nonetheless their DPS contributions are still meaningful and are more in line with DPS margins with Tanks' seems to take longer to say it that way but I will endeavor to accommodate the masses sensitivities in the future.

Seeing how you've made plain you are a supporter of all members of the team offering their own equal contributions and are averse to harsh and baseless judgments, perhaps you can be of use in championing my cause.

This thread is called 'Just Remove Healers' it is saying that my role as in the one I play... being a Healer more precisely, that there are those in the support/argument/suggestion that my Role (Healer), my personal contribution to the Team is worth less than that of Tanks and DPS (one could even say 'minuscule') and by transitive properties that my favorite role (healer)... Should face the ultimate judgment and be 'Removed' from the game.

Now I know you may not be keen on helping me... but you've just made it very clear. No, Very plain to see that, you would surely be against such notions. Could you please draft something up in that regard? Since you felt compelled to intervene in my case, this should be short work for you... please I'm begging you! For all the healers here and at home, please?

you seem to be quite selective in your awareness that this is a community forum, so that means that anything that you post here, or for that matter any of us- is considered fair game for comments. if that feedback becomes the 'bane of your existence' (insert dramatic sigh for effect0 maybe it's time to, as the saying goes - touch some grass?

my reply had nothing whatsoever to do with you, my post was aimed towards your argument, i do hope that you see the distinction. I did not 'intervene', I responded 9again, you seem very confused, it's a community forum0 and i have no idea why i should feel obliged in any way to 'help' you. Why? i provide feedback in other threads regarding healers, as well, go read them, just like anyone else.