Just remove healers.

[Silverbane]

I'm seeing people get stuck up on DPS for healers and all this other nonsense. We contribute DPS. We are not The DPS. That's not our role.

Plus, the overly-simplistic analysis used by many of the "healers is broke" crowd overlooks the fact that sometimes, the best contribution we can make to raising team DPS (i.e., to lower the clear time) is to heal.

I first started thinking about this when one of the healers-is-broke crowd ranted about how he wasn't going to reduce his DPS by taking time off to heal a DPS that was intentionally standing in mob AoEs. "It's not my job to make his parse look good" was the complaint.

But consider this situation: there's a Reaper doing her single-target rotation: Slice - Waxing Slice - Infernal Slice, average potency 1140/3 = 380. If she has to step out of range of the target for a GCD to avoid an AoE, that's on average 380 potency (and 10 soul gauge) lost forever.

But let's say she knows her healer will support her, and stays there, killing the target.
And let's use the worst case, that the healer uses a GCD heal on the Reaper, giving up a Dosis, Glare, Broil, or whatever.

That's about 300 potency, give or take, worth of Healer DPS lost -- to gain 380 potency of Reaper DPS. Even assuming that the damage/potency ratio is the same for the two, that's an substantial gain in team damage. (When there are multiple melee DPS and you can AoE heal them, the DPS balance shifts even further in favor of healing them through the AoE.)

Realizing this, and recognizing that a lot of the incoming AoE in the game is piss weak, I've outright told melee DPS: "for this boss's AoEs, feel free to not dodge if it means staying engaged, I'll keep you up." Because it's a net gain for the team, even if my personal DPS goes down.

Making decisions like this -- employing tactics like this -- are part of what makes healing fun. No other role gets to do it.

And the healers who are too selfish or stupid to prioritize the team's total output over their own won't even think about doing it. Obsessed with their own DPS parse on a class that's not designed to DPS, it's no wonder they are unhappy.

[Nadda]

Plus, the overly-simplistic analysis used by many of the "healers is broke" crowd overlooks the fact that sometimes, the best contribution we can make to raising team DPS (i.e., to lower the clear time) is to heal.

Realizing this, and recognizing that a lot of the incoming AoE in the game is piss weak, I've outright told melee DPS: "for this boss's AoEs, feel free to not dodge if it means staying engaged, I'll keep you up." Because it's a net gain for the team, even if my personal DPS goes down.

Making decisions like this -- employing tactics like this -- are part of what makes healing fun. No other role gets to do it.

Exactly my point. The Healing Role as I've said many times before in this thread is designed to take the DPS loss so that the DPS roles can DPS more.
The old axiom is "Dead DPS do no DPS" but as you said in addition to that if you can compensate the heals to keep a DPS pressing their buttons so they can make better use of their resources you are contributing to the DPS by proxy of protecting and keeping up those that do the most damage.

People I believe who are DPS role orientated who play Healer on occasion I believe are more concerned about DPS parsing and rotations, but this play style doesn't suit a healer. The reason we have 100% access to all of our buttons is precisely how to use them tactically and most efficiently. Our contribution to DPS is minuscule for this purpose. The idea is to act selflessly that's the mindset of every person who picks up healing as a main job role. Is to help. So if the fight does less outgoing damage we can push these scenarios to greater limits.

Brilliant reasoning I whole heartedly agree.

[Nizzi]

Yet again, more fine examples of Dunning-Kruger at work in these forums. Brilliant, it's like watching a BBC nature documentary, now if only I had David Attenborough to read these...

[Nadda]

Yet again, more fine examples of Dunning-Kruger at work in these forums. Brilliant, it's like watching a BBC nature documentary, now if only I had David Attenborough to read these...

I don't think people are incompetent - I think most of the people here are very competent but if we're gonna be using things like the world first and flowcharts to describe what we're talking about here - is a bit more extreme case than a legitimate reason to "Remove healers"

Besides, that ad hominem doesn't really serve your cause. It's easy to blanket people with whatever labels you want it won't make you any more or less superior. You shouldn't look down on others like that. A person of higher understanding should have the capability to communicate with those around them not insult them.

Edit>> And that's no slight against you. Clearly, you are a sophisticated person. But no greater or less so than the people here. Even those I disagree with. Respectfully. Sorry.

[fulminating]

. Our contribution to DPS is minuscule for this purpose.

Healers contribution to damage is about the same as a tank, or roughly 2/3 of a dps.

[Nadda]

Okay, you're gonna have to throw me some rope here.
Otherwise, the exchange between others will get very exhausting having to repeat myself. Especially with a restrictive word limit.
I'm talking under the pretense that people already understand Healers contribute to DPS.
So that wasn't the point.

Yes, the breakdown of any group is we make up 2/3 of the DPS this core tenant is fundamental to how groups work, moving forward from this idea, however, there's obviously quite a large disparity between what my top DPS is as a White Mage I can provide to a Samurai. (To preface again equal contribution of DPS is essential for everyone)

The concept being as was described by Silverbane idea keeping DPS players up is more impactful to the groups success because they do more damage than you. That in effect it is our healing sometimes is the best contribution toward DPS efforts that is part of what our role provides.

If this is confusing please let me know where you have gotten lost so we may better understand each other.

[Rilifane]

Okay, you're gonna have to throw me some rope here.
Otherwise, the exchange between others will get very exhausting having to repeat myself. Especially with a restrictive word limit.
I'm talking under the pretense that people already understand Healers contribute to DPS.
So that wasn't the point.

Yes, the breakdown of any group is we make up 2/3 of the DPS this core tenant is fundamental to how groups work, moving forward from this idea, however, there's obviously quite a large disparity between what my top DPS is as a White Mage I can provide to a Samurai. (To preface again equal contribution of DPS is essential for everyone)

The concept being as was described by Silverbane idea keeping DPS players up is more impactful to the groups success because they do more damage than you. That in effect it is our healing sometimes is the best contribution toward DPS efforts that is part of what our role provides.

If this is confusing please let me know where you have gotten lost so we may better understand each other.

You completely ignore that you do both at the same time in almost every content at almost every time.
It is generally not "I can either Glare and let the dps die OR heal the dps and yaaaaayyyyy I contributed more with my heals <3". It is "I Glare while healing that dps" - which results in all healers easily contributing as much as a tank and roughly 2/3 of a dps. It has already been factored in that healing someone is preferable for group performance than letting them die for a dps GCD.

You do both at the same in almost every situation. The better you are at playing healer the easier this is to understand and execute.
A healer that still lacks practice will frequently chose to drop dps even if they could have fulfilled their primary role without it. There is nothing confusing about stating the obvious, nobody here every argued for refusing to heal at all costs because "muh Glare" or said that it's preferable to use Glare and let a dps die.
You and Silverbane simply ignore something very fundamental: healers heal and dps at the same time - their toolkits were designed for it. Which is why their active dps contribution is far from "miniscule". Fulfilling their primary role while dpsing is factored in with the abundant oGCD/ dps neutral heals they have.

[Nadda]

You completely ignore that you do both at the same time in almost every content at almost every time.
It is generally not "I can either Glare and let the dps die OR heal the dps and yaaaaayyyyy I contributed more with my heals <3". It is "I Glare while healing that dps" - which results in all healers easily contributing as much as a tank and roughly 2/3 of a dps. It has already been factored in that healing someone is preferable for group performance than letting them die for a dps GCD.

You do both at the same in almost every situation. The better you are at playing healer the easier this is to understand and execute.
A healer that still lacks practice will frequently chose to drop dps even if they could have fulfilled their primary role without it. There is nothing confusing about stating the obvious, nobody here every argued for refusing to heal at all costs because "muh Glare" or said that it's preferable to use Glare and let a dps die.
You and Silverbane simply ignore something very fundamental: healers heal and dps at the same time - their toolkits were designed for it. Which is why their active dps contribution is far from "miniscule". Fulfilling their primary role while dpsing is factored in with the abundant oGCD/ dps neutral heals they have.

I'm not ignoring this. How is it I can highlight the fact that Healers need to contribute DPS same as healing and you reach this conclusion is beyond me.
I've spoken in normal English and prefaced that is not what I meant. IN THAT VERY POST!

It is quite and supremely obvious you continue to dps while dishing out your healing. Like where's the cognitive dissonance here.

It's like you people take a sliver of what I say and just ignore the rest of it. WHETHER you want to consider it minuscule or not I could care less this is semantics!

The whole thread is centered around "Removing Healers" right? I'm trying to explain what we contribute.

Do you HONESTLY Think that any self respecting healer is going to either completely dedicate themselves to either just completely DPSing or completely Healing??? WHERE AND WHEN Did I give you that idea.

It's preposterous. I suggested no such thing. Like it literally takes five minutes or less to read what I wrote. Why would you spin it in your head such a ridiculous notion?

I've seriously had it with this level of misrepresentation.

[IDontPetLalas]

I'm not ignoring this. How is it I can highlight the fact that Healers need to contribute DPS same as healing and you reach this conclusion is beyond me.
I've spoken in normal English and prefaced that is not what I meant. IN THAT VERY POST!

It is quite and supremely obvious you continue to dps while dishing out your healing. Like where's the cognitive dissonance here.

It's like you people take a sliver of what I say and just ignore the rest of it. WHETHER you want to consider it minuscule or not I could care less this is semantics!

The whole thread is centered around "Removing Healers" right? I'm trying to explain what we contribute.

Do you HONESTLY Think that any self respecting healer is going to either completely dedicate themselves to either just completely DPSing or completely Healing??? WHERE AND WHEN Did I give you that idea.

It's preposterous. I suggested no such thing. Like it literally takes five minutes or less to read what I wrote. Why would you spin it in your head such a ridiculous notion?

I've seriously had it with this level of misrepresentation.

here is just one preposterous statement that you made

People I believe who are DPS role orientated who play Healer on occasion I believe are more concerned about DPS parsing and rotations, but this play style doesn't suit a healer. The reason we have 100% access to all of our buttons is precisely how to use them tactically and most efficiently. Our contribution to DPS is minuscule for this purpose. The idea is to act selflessly that's the mindset of every person who picks up healing as a main job role. Is to help. So if the fight does less outgoing damage we can push these scenarios to greater limits.

first of all, you have no way at all of knowing whether someone who mains a dps and who plays a healer as an alt is more concerned about their dps than healing. you just made a judgement there.

you made another judgement on how our skills being used since that requires a certain degree of decision making- ok, fine- that like means because sometimes more healing may be required, otherwise dps is fine. saying that our dps is 'miniscule'? uh, no. thanks, I don't want to have to whale away for a solid 15 minutes to kill a single mob for a quest, for example. more like 'lower than a DPS- closer to a tank".

but then we get to the real winner here, the idea that healers are acting selflessly--- we are not ministering angels, each job should be there to work as a team, and think of the other members of the group- and each job should be fun in its own way.

[D6Damager]

Healers contribution to damage is about the same as a tank, or roughly 2/3 of a dps.

This is not true. Even the best healer dmg parses (SGE) are completely behind the lowest dmg tank (PLD). Healer damage is not even close to tank damage. And AST is the worst dmg in the game right now by a good margin. The logs are there for anyone to see.