Just remove healers.

[SieyaM]

paladin and dark knight?

tanks are kind of in the same boat sure but their damage rotations are all different beyond "this one has assize, this one has energy drain instead, this one has phlegma instead, this one has earthly star!"

in fact they dont even have the same dps pattern as each other, unlike a certain role i know

I know this is an old post, but given this graph (which for some reason only includes 2 tanks while including all 4 healers) it looks like the difference between WHM and AST are very similar to the difference in PLD and DRK, one has a much more steady line of DPS while the other has a few higher spikes.

[QooEr]

I know this is an old post, but given this graph (which for some reason only includes 2 tanks while including all 4 healers) it looks like the difference between WHM and AST are very similar to the difference in PLD and DRK, one has a much more steady line of DPS while the other has a few higher spikes.

whats your point? even with their differences whm and ast match more closely than drk and pld. i only included 2 tanks because i was responding to this and gave drk and pld as an example.

Point to me a tank that plays radically different from their 1,2,3 combos and tank stance on or off? Your argument falls flat here because tanks are in the same boat.

the graphs were just supplementary info. even without them its clear that PLD and DRK have vastly different rotations. meanwhile all healers have virtually the same damage rotation, with at most 2 functionally different actions.

im not saying tanks have it super good because they too have been subject to the same crap healers have, but theyre still way ahead of healers in terms of rotational variance.

[Nadda]

Many words were said, also I like your glasses <3

Ahem* You keep mentioning world first progging like that's a serious thing a majority of the players are going for or even yourself.
Who's doing world first seriously? That's such a small number of the player base its less than a fraction of a fraction. (because most people don't even touch the high end content)
If you were to focus on progression for progression's sake most people play whatever they like and get the clears regardless. The fights aren't designed in a way where you would be at a disadvantage taking any job, otherwise, that be a much bigger stigma at even the casual level. All jobs are designed to be mostly relative.
WF is no metric for anything.
Why are we using this as the defacto state of the game? By that metric, I shouldn't ever be able to clear things as a whitemage main. There was never a point where it felt like... ooo if only we had this much DPS to get over x hurdle... I mean maybe it did back in HW with Alexander... but like that was it.

I don't care what world first raiders are doing and neither should you friend. Just clear the content and have fun.

On another side note going on here I'm seeing people get stuck up on DPS for healers and all this other nonsense. We contribute DPS. We are not The DPS. That's not our role. Like I'd just like to have more options on my whitemage but people make it sound like it's objectively not fun unless I'm going through one of those horrid rotations. "Because it's more complex" When the game is literally telling me what to press. I hate rotations. I like being able to press whatever button I like in the best order I see fit. There's not a single rotation baring the oGCDs people weave in or potion they drank that isn't baked into the game.

That's what makes healing so much more fun. I have 100% access to use whatever I got in my healing arsenal at anytime use them in anyway I see fit. DPS rotations feel like punching in your pin number at an ATM to withdraw your abilities for damage. If we did get damage spells I don't want any of that lameness attached to me.

[Silverbane]

I'm seeing people get stuck up on DPS for healers and all this other nonsense. We contribute DPS. We are not The DPS. That's not our role.

Plus, the overly-simplistic analysis used by many of the "healers is broke" crowd overlooks the fact that sometimes, the best contribution we can make to raising team DPS (i.e., to lower the clear time) is to heal.

I first started thinking about this when one of the healers-is-broke crowd ranted about how he wasn't going to reduce his DPS by taking time off to heal a DPS that was intentionally standing in mob AoEs. "It's not my job to make his parse look good" was the complaint.

But consider this situation: there's a Reaper doing her single-target rotation: Slice - Waxing Slice - Infernal Slice, average potency 1140/3 = 380. If she has to step out of range of the target for a GCD to avoid an AoE, that's on average 380 potency (and 10 soul gauge) lost forever.

But let's say she knows her healer will support her, and stays there, killing the target.
And let's use the worst case, that the healer uses a GCD heal on the Reaper, giving up a Dosis, Glare, Broil, or whatever.

That's about 300 potency, give or take, worth of Healer DPS lost -- to gain 380 potency of Reaper DPS. Even assuming that the damage/potency ratio is the same for the two, that's an substantial gain in team damage. (When there are multiple melee DPS and you can AoE heal them, the DPS balance shifts even further in favor of healing them through the AoE.)

Realizing this, and recognizing that a lot of the incoming AoE in the game is piss weak, I've outright told melee DPS: "for this boss's AoEs, feel free to not dodge if it means staying engaged, I'll keep you up." Because it's a net gain for the team, even if my personal DPS goes down.

Making decisions like this -- employing tactics like this -- are part of what makes healing fun. No other role gets to do it.

And the healers who are too selfish or stupid to prioritize the team's total output over their own won't even think about doing it. Obsessed with their own DPS parse on a class that's not designed to DPS, it's no wonder they are unhappy.

[Nadda]

Plus, the overly-simplistic analysis used by many of the "healers is broke" crowd overlooks the fact that sometimes, the best contribution we can make to raising team DPS (i.e., to lower the clear time) is to heal.

Realizing this, and recognizing that a lot of the incoming AoE in the game is piss weak, I've outright told melee DPS: "for this boss's AoEs, feel free to not dodge if it means staying engaged, I'll keep you up." Because it's a net gain for the team, even if my personal DPS goes down.

Making decisions like this -- employing tactics like this -- are part of what makes healing fun. No other role gets to do it.

Exactly my point. The Healing Role as I've said many times before in this thread is designed to take the DPS loss so that the DPS roles can DPS more.
The old axiom is "Dead DPS do no DPS" but as you said in addition to that if you can compensate the heals to keep a DPS pressing their buttons so they can make better use of their resources you are contributing to the DPS by proxy of protecting and keeping up those that do the most damage.

People I believe who are DPS role orientated who play Healer on occasion I believe are more concerned about DPS parsing and rotations, but this play style doesn't suit a healer. The reason we have 100% access to all of our buttons is precisely how to use them tactically and most efficiently. Our contribution to DPS is minuscule for this purpose. The idea is to act selflessly that's the mindset of every person who picks up healing as a main job role. Is to help. So if the fight does less outgoing damage we can push these scenarios to greater limits.

Brilliant reasoning I whole heartedly agree.

[Nizzi]

Yet again, more fine examples of Dunning-Kruger at work in these forums. Brilliant, it's like watching a BBC nature documentary, now if only I had David Attenborough to read these...

[Nadda]

Yet again, more fine examples of Dunning-Kruger at work in these forums. Brilliant, it's like watching a BBC nature documentary, now if only I had David Attenborough to read these...

I don't think people are incompetent - I think most of the people here are very competent but if we're gonna be using things like the world first and flowcharts to describe what we're talking about here - is a bit more extreme case than a legitimate reason to "Remove healers"

Besides, that ad hominem doesn't really serve your cause. It's easy to blanket people with whatever labels you want it won't make you any more or less superior. You shouldn't look down on others like that. A person of higher understanding should have the capability to communicate with those around them not insult them.

Edit>> And that's no slight against you. Clearly, you are a sophisticated person. But no greater or less so than the people here. Even those I disagree with. Respectfully. Sorry.

[fulminating]

. Our contribution to DPS is minuscule for this purpose.

Healers contribution to damage is about the same as a tank, or roughly 2/3 of a dps.

[Nadda]

Okay, you're gonna have to throw me some rope here.
Otherwise, the exchange between others will get very exhausting having to repeat myself. Especially with a restrictive word limit.
I'm talking under the pretense that people already understand Healers contribute to DPS.
So that wasn't the point.

Yes, the breakdown of any group is we make up 2/3 of the DPS this core tenant is fundamental to how groups work, moving forward from this idea, however, there's obviously quite a large disparity between what my top DPS is as a White Mage I can provide to a Samurai. (To preface again equal contribution of DPS is essential for everyone)

The concept being as was described by Silverbane idea keeping DPS players up is more impactful to the groups success because they do more damage than you. That in effect it is our healing sometimes is the best contribution toward DPS efforts that is part of what our role provides.

If this is confusing please let me know where you have gotten lost so we may better understand each other.

[Rilifane]

Okay, you're gonna have to throw me some rope here.
Otherwise, the exchange between others will get very exhausting having to repeat myself. Especially with a restrictive word limit.
I'm talking under the pretense that people already understand Healers contribute to DPS.
So that wasn't the point.

Yes, the breakdown of any group is we make up 2/3 of the DPS this core tenant is fundamental to how groups work, moving forward from this idea, however, there's obviously quite a large disparity between what my top DPS is as a White Mage I can provide to a Samurai. (To preface again equal contribution of DPS is essential for everyone)

The concept being as was described by Silverbane idea keeping DPS players up is more impactful to the groups success because they do more damage than you. That in effect it is our healing sometimes is the best contribution toward DPS efforts that is part of what our role provides.

If this is confusing please let me know where you have gotten lost so we may better understand each other.

You completely ignore that you do both at the same time in almost every content at almost every time.
It is generally not "I can either Glare and let the dps die OR heal the dps and yaaaaayyyyy I contributed more with my heals <3". It is "I Glare while healing that dps" - which results in all healers easily contributing as much as a tank and roughly 2/3 of a dps. It has already been factored in that healing someone is preferable for group performance than letting them die for a dps GCD.

You do both at the same in almost every situation. The better you are at playing healer the easier this is to understand and execute.
A healer that still lacks practice will frequently chose to drop dps even if they could have fulfilled their primary role without it. There is nothing confusing about stating the obvious, nobody here every argued for refusing to heal at all costs because "muh Glare" or said that it's preferable to use Glare and let a dps die.
You and Silverbane simply ignore something very fundamental: healers heal and dps at the same time - their toolkits were designed for it. Which is why their active dps contribution is far from "miniscule". Fulfilling their primary role while dpsing is factored in with the abundant oGCD/ dps neutral heals they have.