6.15 patch, still no Kaiten revert

[Hezhi]

None asked for this change, it didn't fix anything, it didn't address button bloat effectively, it didn't address APM issues, it just dumbed down the job massively to potentially make the devs jobs easier when they have to design new things 2 years from now. The Endwalker Meikyo Shisui changes already made the job way easier for anyone to pick up, why force it even harder? Was it to make the job better for DSR or something, was is because of that they released this scuffed kit? And to add insult to injury, the crit changes please nearly none. It is just an awful, awful idea on all accounts and hundreds of forum posts protesting against it should be enough to warrant a revert.

I know adjusting the potency of every single SAM action to account for the removal of such an important ability must have been a real pain in the arse and surely required a bunch of costly internal testing but turns out none who played the job past level 52 likes having a Hissatsu:Shinten gauge over a Kenki gauge.

I know devs listened to feedback before when they reverted the Hagakure removal, and it's not too late to do the same for Shinten. Do it already.

[CKNovel]

Apologies but I'll repeat myself:
Don't expect anything until a major patch. Don't expect job gameplay changes until 6.2.
Small patch are programmed in advance and can only be slightly tweaked like in PvP.

If you just throw Kaiten on current SAM, the job would be incredibly broken. Therefore they need to rebalance the whole job.

Of course don't stop providing feedback until confirmation, but don't expect major job changes in a small patch only meant to enable content.

[Soge01]

Apologies but I'll repeat myself:
Don't expect anything until a major patch. Don't expect job gameplay changes until 6.2.
Small patch are programmed in advance and can only be slightly tweaked like in PvP.

If you just throw Kaiten on current SAM, the job would be incredibly broken. Therefore they need to rebalance the whole job.

Of course don't stop providing feedback until confirmation, but don't expect major job changes in a small patch only meant to enable content.

I just wish they would at least say something reassuring to us. The silence is getting really annoying. :/

[CKNovel]

I just wish they would at least say something reassuring to us. The silence is getting really annoying. :/

What's truly annoying is how BLM got buffed in PvP, community memed about it and Yoshida made a letter to the community within the same week.
However, they can make PvP changes on the fly without problems since it's not designed to be excessively competitive. It was never their priority.
But we have DSR prog going on for many groups, you can't suddenly makes changes mid-prog. Especially not gameplay changes.

Arguably, you can. But SQEX doesn't want to. Untouched MCH should be enough to understand it's not their will.

Devs can easily do this.

If you think crit and damage can be simply turned on and off, I can safely assume you're not a Dev that worked on a complex online game.
We don't know the code architecture, neither their development rules and good practices or their deployment strategies.

Claiming "Devs can easily do this with true and false statement" is pure conjecture with no foundations.

[Stasya]

If you think crit and damage can be simply turned on and off, I can safely assume you're not a Dev that worked on a complex online game.
We don't know the code architecture, neither they development rules and good practices.

Claiming "Devs can easily do this with true and false statement" is pure conjecture with no foundations.

If they cant do this easily why the hell there are pvp balance patches on the fly and also yoshi p multiple poems about it? What code rules code practices? You are trying to act like ff14 code is some trash like Team Fortress 2.
W/e se whiteknight just playing "devs can never be bad" thingy....

[CKNovel]

If they cant do this easily why the hell there are pvp balance patches on the fly and also yoshi p multiple poems about it? What code rules code practices? You are trying to act like ff14 code is some trash like Team Fortress 2.

I invite you to read once again my previous comment:

However, they can make PvP changes on the fly without problems since it's not designed to be excessively competitive. It was never their priority.
But we have DSR prog going on for many groups, you can't suddenly makes changes mid-prog. Especially not gameplay changes.

Arguably, you can. But SQEX doesn't want to. Untouched MCH should be enough to understand it's not their will.

They can do pvp changes whenever they want since there is no real competition beyond climbing the ladder.
They can't do it in pve because Ultimate prog is ongoing for too many groups.

On top of that, SAM isn't in a state where it needs critical chance.
PvP BLM was a bit broken and they made it clear they were still trying to reach a correct balance. Which is understandable, all jobs went under a massive pvp rework.

So I went from troll to whiteknight, is that a rank up or a demote?
I don't think you can bring anything more than conjecture and baseless statement to the discussion.

[Stasya]

None asked for this change, it didn't fix anything, it didn't address button bloat effectively, it didn't address APM issues, it just dumbed down the job massively to potentially make the devs jobs easier when they have to design new things 2 years from now. The Endwalker Meikyo Shisui changes already made the job way easier for anyone to pick up, why force it even harder? Was it to make the job better for DSR or something, was is because of that they released this scuffed kit? And to add insult to injury, the crit changes please nearly none. It is just an awful, awful idea on all accounts and hundreds of forum posts protesting against it should be enough to warrant a revert.

I know adjusting the potency of every single SAM action to account for the removal of such an important ability must have been a real pain in the arse and surely required a bunch of costly internal testing but turns out none who played the job past level 52 likes having a Hissatsu:Shinten gauge over a Kenki gauge.

I know devs listened to feedback before when they reverted the Hagakure removal, and it's not too late to do the same for Shinten. Do it already.

Its kinda clear that it was for this. Still didnt changed fact that sam is not great in any ultimate. Viable? There are tons of melee players and people would rather find nin (because you cant dp sam) or monk (because its literally sam but with mantra and you can dp him too) or drg (because you have nin or monk already).

Apologies but I'll repeat myself:
Don't expect anything until a major patch. Don't expect job gameplay changes until 6.2.
Small patch are programmed in advance and can only be slightly tweaked like in PvP.

If you just throw Kaiten on current SAM, the job would be incredibly broken. Therefore they need to rebalance the whole job.

Of course don't stop providing feedback until confirmation, but don't expect major job changes in a small patch only meant to enable content.

No one asks just to return Kaiten, people ask for complete revert to 6.08 without bs auto crits and shinten spam.

[CKNovel]

No one asks just to return Kaiten, people ask for complete revert to 6.08 without bs auto crits and shinten spam.

Even a complete revert needs proper testing.
On top of that, I truly doubt they will remove the autocrit. I think it' more likely they balance the crit buffs to provide crit damage or something in this area.
The auto crit was meant to reduce the DPS gap between lucky and unlucky SAMs, I'm sure they want to keep this idea.

[Stasya]

Even a complete revert needs proper testing.
On top of that, I truly doubt they will remove the autocrit. I think it' more likely they balance the crit buffs to provide crit damage or something in this area.
The auto crit was meant to reduce the DPS gap between lucky and unlucky SAMs, I'm sure they want to keep this idea.

What proper testing do you want from developers that do significant change to class right before ultimate release and blatanlty lie that someone cried about something non existing (apm lol)? And also you can play with dps gap by adjusting potencies of every skill in rotation, devs dig themselfs into lets put 3k+ potencies into every 2 minute skill and they have ability to fix it if they care (not only on sam).

The thing that they add auto crits to pure dps class just shows how lazy and competent devs are. Not only this, again they force 2 minute buffs meta yet make pure dps class to not work with 4 classes in this meta. Kinda crazy to see this from "main class machinist" but i guess you are troll (with a fast check yes you are^^).

[darkdyllon]

Its kinda clear that it was for this. Still didnt changed fact that sam is not great in any ultimate. Viable? There are tons of melee players and people would rather find nin (because you cant dp sam) or monk (because its literally sam but with mantra and you can dp him too) or drg (because you have nin or monk already).


No one asks just to return Kaiten, people ask for complete revert to 6.08 without bs auto crits and shinten spam.

my static is currently progging DSU and we have a SAM (since that's his prefered job and he joined us before 6.1)
we don't have any issues hitting the DPS check as of right now (we'll get see phase 2 enrage soon, but i doubt that we're gonna have trouble hitting that DPS check either)
the 2 knights we generally kill before the paladins last holiest of holy cast, so quite a bit before true enrage and we generally finish the cone phase with that dude having 11-15% HP remaining (and 30% is the minimum to survive it)
it's viable, just doesn't sync nearly as well with other jobs as it used to unfortunately.


the problem would be that if Kaiten returns with 6.1 changes (auto crit etc) that Kaiten would either still make Iaitsu hit like a wet noodle or it would absolutely destroy balance because of it.
so if they revert straight back to 6.08 and work from there, make some changes internally, remove Kaiten there BUT start having alternatives to Kaiten (that's the main issue people are having, Kaiten brought gauge management, if just Shinten was removed the same issue would surface, Kaiten was removed and nothing was added in it's place)

keep these changes for 7.0 and BAM there's some major changes coming to SAM that we were working on through the entire expansion. (also 1 thing i'm absolutely positive on is that we need an PTS for job balancing, purely for job balancing, not for actual content, nothing will be brought over to the main game, just to test the changes before they go live)