i'm sick and tired of the excuse for not having unique or varied jobs

[pikalovr]

Where are you pulling those numbers from and why do you think I only care about damage.



???

again:

because if you didn't you wouldn't have disregarded me bringing up a literal example of how to make fights where every job can approach the fight differently. it's not that hard, the only reason you'd assume it is. is because it's DPS or nothing which isn't the case. also you quite literally said it's the jobs fault if they're made more unique and a bad RDM dealt less damage than a good RDM or was able to use their kit more effectively than a bad RDM. which why is that the case then? should the good player not be doing better than a bad player? a job being unique has little to no change on balancing. once again why do you think i bring up RDM it has a 1k DPS difference and lower rDPS literally the thing thats calculated based on the amount of the damage you dealt and the damage buffs you applied added to it. but it's still brought into fights cause all the casters are *gasp* balanced. and each are still unique to one another. you can't sit and here and go i don't care about DPS then immediately ignore the fact the few unique jobs we do have are actually balanced even with lower DPS

and you know exactly where i'm pulling my stats from. hell even just looking at the medians you notice a significant difference even SMN is doing better than RDM and SMN is arguably easier than RDM

[pikalovr]

now if you said making fights would be more difficult you would be right. since they actually have to think about each job now instead of ok lets just make ti so the lowest DPs comp in base ilvl gear can clear it. but as you also said IT'S A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR COMPANY. if yoshi-p is not pushing for more funding for XIV then thats on him and SE being absolutely stupid for not investing in their literal biggest cash cow. there's no reason we should have to use fights being harder to make as anexcuse to not have unique jobs. we as the consumer should be pushing for more uniqueness more ways to play the game. we're paying 15$ a month for this (yes ik with inflation it'd be higher, but it's not companies being generous. it's that they never raised it cause who would pay for example 30$ a month to play a game for one month for MSQ then leave it). stop treating companies like saviors when it's literal basic economics/business tactics

[Saraide]

and you know exactly where i'm pulling my stats from. hell even just looking at the medians you notice a significant difference even SMN is doing better than RDM and SMN is arguably easier than RDM

The thing is, I dont. Because when i look at the rdps rankings on fflogs for asphodelos the differences are at most half of what you said, often even less.

Remember when I said:

I dont want to feel like I'm holding back my group just because the job I like is very ill suited for a specific fight.

You are skipping the "ill suited" part and just argue about current and made up examples where casters are both unique and well suited for fights (be it for just damage or for progging). In your examples you havent given up balance. So thanks for agreeing with me I guess.

[icemage]

Hey, genuine question... What if you've never played WoW and you still think FF14s job design sucks? How can I go back to something I've never been to in the first place?

I feel like a lot of you defenders of this casualization are being disingenuous.

How would jobs suddenly become unviable if they weren't all reskins of the same thing? How is playing the same thing on every job even remotely fun to people?

Because you're exaggerating. The jobs are all different to me so it's your own opinion that they are "the same thing". Tell me how a dancer plays remotely the same as a bard other than the role actions.

[PharisHanasaki]

Because you're exaggerating. The jobs are all different to me so it's your own opinion that they are "the same thing". Tell me how a dancer plays remotely the same as a bard other than the role actions.

While there are still differences, the jobs have been homigenized quite a lot throughout the years.

For example, you know that when you switch from say WAR to GNB, you gotta look for that tank stance, 1,2,3 combo, aoe combo, dmg buff, and invul. The rest of the spells are the slight differences that make them somewhat unique.

They were more diverse before the StB dumb down. My main was AST and it got destroyed because the loggers wouldn't take any other buff but the dmg increase one, and the casuals and other non healer mains wanted to "main everything" and AST was to hard. I mean you had 3 buffs that you could extend to other members or enhance for a single target. It's really not hard at all.

Instead of trying to build on top of those differences, they decided to strip them all together for "balance".

[FoxyAreku]

The Jobs ARE varied to play, I rly dunno what game people are playing who think they play the same.

I'm sorry but this made me spit my water nearly.

The only way I could see someone think this is if this is the only MMO they've ever played. Jobs of the same role in this game are 100% interchangeable with incredibly minor mechanic differences with the exception of like, Ninja, and even then the damage combos are the same.

[pikalovr]

The thing is, I dont. Because when i look at the rdps rankings on fflogs for asphodelos the differences are at most half of what you said, often even less.

Remember when I said:



You are skipping the "ill suited" part and just argue about current and made up examples where casters are both unique and well suited for fights (be it for just damage or for progging). In your examples you havent given up balance. So thanks for agreeing with me I guess.

it's almost as if there's a reason why i split DPS and rDPS if you actually look at nDPS the jobs personal DPS or even the aDPS which gets rid of single target padding and not raid DPS you'll notice around a 900-1k DPS difference at absolute top end and around 800 DPS at the median for the tier. the fact once again the BLM is flat out dealing enough damage by himself to have higher rDPS than the two other jobs with a BUFF for the party is the issue (even in fights where they're closer). it doesn't matter that it's a slight increase. it's a matter that raid DPS is calculated by taking the jobs DPS minus others buffs like TA or brotherhood then adding the DPS gained from their buffs going to other people. meaning BLM is doing enough damage to literally invalidate a RDM or SMN being included in the comp at equal skill levels.

and i didn't skip the ill suited part. it's literally why i made the whole example for how a P1s mechanic could be done to make each caster be useful. the only thing that makes a job ill suited is the fight itself. not the job which is what i was trying to get through to you. just like the whole blunt/slashing/piercing damage if the fight heavily favored one type of damage without giving other damage types a chance to do something, thats not on the system of slashing/piercing/blunt. thats on the fight for not taking into account the system if they want every job to be viable. take for example A4s each leg could've been resistant to each type of damage magic/piercing/slahing/blunt and so each damage type would be necessary and useful. or hell even leviathan still has immunities on the head and tail for magic/phys ranged

balancing jobs to be unique isn't hard. and no you don't have to throw out one for the other. literally almost no other RPG does that cause it's not needed. even in co-op RPGs with multiple classes. what is hard to balance is fights to where one job doesn't feel like it's a need to pick or massively outshadow the others. which can be circumvented using examples i've used before. bring back unique debuffs (both on us and being able to put on the enemy), make mechanics be skippable/stoppable by unique means (DPSing the chains on warden, if you overshield the follow AOEs in P2s you don't have to worry about moving, etc...), give us different burst windows (similar to what kinda happens on P3s where you have different windows to burst thanks to AD variance and whether or not you kill them fast enough), etc..

[Deveryn]

I'm sorry but this made me spit my water nearly.

The only way I could see someone think this is if this is the only MMO they've ever played. Jobs of the same role in this game are 100% interchangeable with incredibly minor mechanic differences with the exception of like, Ninja, and even then the damage combos are the same.

I spit my water on you.

We're not all the same. One size does not fit all.

There's enough difference that you'll have people favor one over the other, like sage vs. scholar or any other healer. Some jobs are a little busier than others.

[Striker44]

I'm sorry but this made me spit my water nearly.

The only way I could see someone think this is if this is the only MMO they've ever played. Jobs of the same role in this game are 100% interchangeable with incredibly minor mechanic differences with the exception of like, Ninja, and even then the damage combos are the same.

I've played several MMO's. WoW, GW, GW2, SWTOR, and FFXIV (possibly others, not sure). And I find the jobs quite different. If there were only "incredibly minor" differences, I wouldn't find I enjoy certain ones much more than others precisely *because* of the differences between them. RDM plays very different than Bard, which plays very different than Dragoon from my experience. SCH plays distinctly from WHM, with a focus on shields and AoE healing vs. single-target power heals. Perhaps it's time to step back and actually listen to your fellow players...

[pikalovr]

I've played several MMO's. WoW, GW, GW2, SWTOR, and FFXIV (possibly others, not sure). And I find the jobs quite different. If there were only "incredibly minor" differences, I wouldn't find I enjoy certain ones much more than others precisely *because* of the differences between them. RDM plays very different than Bard, which plays very different than Dragoon from my experience. SCH plays distinctly from WHM, with a focus on shields and AoE healing vs. single-target power heals. Perhaps it's time to step back and actually listen to your fellow players...

really out here comparing completely different roles to eachother and says they feel different like ??? if they didn't we wouldn't even have seperate roles my guy. why on gods green earth would you compare a melee DPS to a caster? and not you know other melees? and even RDM is a hybrid so it's still not a good comparison. also WHM and SCH used to be the only healers in game so they become the regen and shield healers then came AST that could switch stances between regen and shield healing but since SGE was coming out AST became a pure healer and SGE was the other shield healer now once again if you were to compare AST to WHM sure cards/seals vs. lillies and benediction versus group buff but thats about it tbh. SCH has the fairy (a given as i've said before cause without the fairy it literally would not be a SCH), expedience, aetherflow stacks, and emergency tactics/deployment tactics over SGE in terms of uniqueness. SGE has eukrasia (which is used to change your single target to a DOT and your heals to shields), toxicon/addersgall stacks which is essentially harder to get aetherflow stacks and acually split up (addersgall support/toxicon ONE damage ability emphasis on ONE). now in terms of DPSing options? 1 single target 1 AOE 1 DoT and a couple of oGCD options is basically what you get