i'm sick and tired of the excuse for not having unique or varied jobs

[Hezhi]

PvP has given up on the holy trinity. That and pvp only being a side event in this game allows them to go ham. Throwing the entire combat design overboard in PvE content is a horrible idea from a game design point of view.

It is not what I said, I'm not advocating for the devs throwing the entire combat design overboard and copying PvP 1:1, I'm advocating for taking notes of all the fun they're having in PvP and pushing job individuality over role inviduality more, like they used to do before enforcing a job bar on every job and sorting them into neat little roles to make their own work easier. If you really wanna go on the game design side of things, then why does a game like FFXIV that allows you to level ALL jobs on a single character, doesn't want to take advantage of that and make jobs more advantageous in certain situations? It would make sense, people can just switch on a whim, you watched the Shadowbringers trailer? lol
This games combat used to feel like more than 2m loops of group wide CD rotations. Why, just why can't the devs go ham, why can't they have more fun in PvE, the real game mode, and tip back game design towards that RPG side it used to have? Why can't raids make use of CC mechanics? Why can't jobs have solid advantages based on their unique skills in certain encounters? Because it would upset the parsers they're actively banning on sight? Come on friend, you know they've been going too far into that safe, sanitized, boring direction for a while now.

[Saraide]

It is not what I said, I'm not advocating for the devs throwing the entire combat design overboard and copying PvP 1:1, I'm advocating for taking notes of all the fun they're having in PvP and pushing job individuality over role inviduality more, like they used to do before enforcing a job bar on every job and sorting them into neat little roles to make their own work easier. If you really wanna go on the game design side of things, then why does a game like FFXIV that allows you to level ALL jobs on a single character, doesn't want to take advantage of that and make jobs more advantageous in certain situations? It would make sense, people can just switch on a whim, you watched the Shadowbringers trailer? lol
This games combat used to feel like more than 2m loops of group wide CD rotations. Why, just why can't the devs go ham, why can't they have more fun in PvE, the real game mode, and tip back game design towards that RPG side it used to have? Why can't raids make use of CC mechanics? Why can't jobs have solid advantages based on their unique skills in certain encounters? Because it would upset the parsers they're actively banning on sight? Come on friend, you know they've been going too far into that safe, sanitized, boring direction for a while now.

We had stun, interrupt and cleanse mechanics in raids before. They arent terribly interesting as it's literally just a single button. This also has absolutely nothing to do with parsing because logs are always measured against the same job you play on.

I'm against leaning into heavy job advantages, there are jobs I like to play and there are jobs I dont like to play. I dont want to feel like I'm holding back my group just because the job I like is very ill suited for a specific fight. Getting to level all jobs on a single character is just a good decision regardless.

[ReynTime]

"Meta" exists everywhere with character or setup choice. Imagine if every other game worried as much as XIV does. Enjoy Smash Bros featuring 70 characters that feel like they're 4 cloned characters with different skin, or KoF with like 3 styles cloned through 20+ because "meta" is a thing...

Anyway, Meta is still a thing in XIV and will always be a thing. But if the designers want to keep making this pointless chase for the perfect balance according to their job balance consultant, Syndrome, then go devs I guess.

[pikalovr]

"Meta" exists everywhere with character or setup choice. Imagine if every other game worried as much as XIV does. Enjoy Smash Bros featuring 70 characters that feel like they're 4 cloned characters with different skin, or KoF with like 3 styles cloned through 20+ because "meta" is a thing...

Anyway, Meta is still a thing in XIV and will always be a thing. But if the designers want to keep making this pointless chase for the perfect balance according to their job balance consultant, Syndrome, then go devs I guess.

and this is why i specifically brought up the fact you can literally make a highest DPS comp rn and if people were gonna worry about being min maxed optimal they would already be softbanning jobs or setting ilvl limits anyways

[pikalovr]

We had stun, interrupt and cleanse mechanics in raids before. They arent terribly interesting as it's literally just a single button. This also has absolutely nothing to do with parsing because logs are always measured against the same job you play on.

I'm against leaning into heavy job advantages, there are jobs I like to play and there are jobs I dont like to play. I dont want to feel like I'm holding back my group just because the job I like is very ill suited for a specific fight. Getting to level all jobs on a single character is just a good decision regardless.

you're already holding back your group if you're not playing the highest DPS comp. you wanna play RDM? you're already holding the group back since BLM and SMN can hit higher damage thresholds and BLM can hit far higher DPS thresholds than both other casters. so ig BLM should be nerfed then so you don't feel like you're holding the group back when you play RDM or SMN compared to BLM.

but wait a minute whats this RDM brings utility to the group. so it's not a complete downside being a lot lower DPS wise? hmmm it's maybe as if DPS isn't the only thing that matters in fights and it shouldn't be. bring back debuffs bring back unique ways to interrupt mechanics allow jobs to have niches they can fill. just cause we had arguablly bad systems in the past blunt piercing strike damage and elemental materia. doesn't mean you can't make fun and engaging kits that still have their reasons to be picked over other jobs and fights that may benefit certain jobs over others.

let's say for example P1s RDM has a burst window up to break the chains that the warden summons skipping the chain phase and forcing him to instead AOE after being stunned from his mechanic being interrupted. which is a net DPS gain to the group cause these chains would ACTUALLY force melee out of melee range. but BLM still deals more overall DPS so it evens out. it just comes out to do you want to help the group? play RDM and get your party the melee uptime. or do you want to be a high DPs selfish job and make up for the melees lost uptime anyways? play BLM. two completely different ways to approach the fight that gets the fight done in roughly the same time just how you approach it is different. SMN could be turned into a really good defensive job for progging using titan to apply party wide mitigations and shields since SMN gets it every minute. and if you still feel like you need that little boost in defenses for reclears guess what? most groups would prefer the safety of the SMn over potentially wiping the party but having higher DPS from BLM or RDM. why do you think most PFs would rather have tanks eat every bait in P3s than actually do the mechanic correctly and have everyone have their own responsibilities?

[Saraide]

snip

Currently the margins are very slim and I am not talking about strictly damage either, rdm's instant raises are very nice for progging.. The impact right now between different jobs is far less than between a good and a bad player and that's good. I am not holding back the party by what job I play, only with my skill level. This would very much change if job balance is thrown out of the window.

I'm just gonna repeat myself here because I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

I think we can have unique jobs, we just shouldnt give up job balance to achieve that. Is that way harder than neglecting one for the other? Yea sure, but this is not some small indie dev we are talking about. Excellence should be expected from this game.

[pikalovr]

Currently the margins are very slim and I am not talking about strictly damage either, rdm's instant raises are very nice for progging.. The impact right now between different jobs is far less than between a good and a bad player and that's good. I am not holding back the party by what job I play, only with my skill level. This would very much change if job balance is thrown out of the window.

I'm just gonna repeat myself here because I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

1k DPS is very slim? and BLM still having higher rDPS than the jobs with a group buff? ok bud it's a slim difference. i quite literally threw out a situation that all three casters have their own way to approach the fight. and get it done roughly the same time or slightly slower (SMN) for a safer prog/clear. but we'll just say it's the jobs fault if that happens. and everyone would just play BLM even tho it's literally almost the same kill speed. if anything it feels like i'm talking to a wall since you can't seem to understand there are ways to make unique jobs balanced OUTSIDE OF DPS. there was a reason i brought up why RDM was still brought into fights despite the "slight" margin in DPS cause DPS shouldn't be the be all end all in terms of balance. make fights unique give jobs different ways to approach fights like the example i provided

[Yeastyloins]

Sorry, but it is not true. The magic word is 'meta'. If the content is easier with a specific job/race then the players will avoid other jobs/races, which do not fit the meta. It happens literary in every MMORPG, especially in WoW. Because there are bigger differences between the races and classes.

SQEX has to solve two contradictory demands: equality in every content and unique class identity. You will never get both. Obviously SQEX decided to sacrifice the job identity to get more equality. Other companies made the opposite decision, like Blizzard with WoW Classic/Vanilla. In this game you have very unique classes but their performance differences are huge. The dps of a fury warrior are double as high as of a retribution paladin. And the raids were full with fury warriors. As a retribution paladin you had no luck.


Cheers

Another large component of this comes from the fact that FF14's fight design is all single target with variance in each fight is determined by whether the boss goes unforgettable or if there is a period where you lose uptime. Where as you have a number of fights with multiple targets and the nature of said multiple targets can determine what class you played. Most recent example in my mind was playing Unholy DK for all of CN in 9.0 EXCEPT for Mythic SLG where Frost DK running Breath was good since that fight had such a heavy priority cleave. Even then with the same fight, funnel damage or cleaving to gain proc's to dump into single target damage into a specific priority kill target was highly valued.

It's a bit of a blessing and a curse. FF14 has good balance than other games I've seen but it's because fights are functionally braindead in terms of damage and the fights are all effectively single target.

[Saraide]

1k DPS is very slim? and BLM still having higher rDPS than the jobs with a group buff? ok bud it's a slim difference. i quite literally threw out a situation that all three casters have their own way to approach the fight. and get it done roughly the same time or slightly slower (SMN) for a safer prog/clear. but we'll just say it's the jobs fault if that happens. and everyone would just play BLM even tho it's literally almost the same kill speed. if anything it feels like i'm talking to a wall since you can't seem to understand there are ways to make unique jobs balanced OUTSIDE OF DPS. there was a reason i brought up why RDM was still brought into fights despite the "slight" margin in DPS cause DPS shouldn't be the be all end all in terms of balance. make fights unique give jobs different ways to approach fights like the example i provided

Where are you pulling those numbers from and why do you think I only care about damage.

since you can't seem to understand there are ways to make unique jobs balanced OUTSIDE OF DPS

???

again:

I think we can have unique jobs, we just shouldnt give up job balance to achieve that. Is that way harder than neglecting one for the other? Yea sure, but this is not some small indie dev we are talking about. Excellence should be expected from this game.

[MintnHoney]

Well, I believe that we should go for the uniqueness, let the chips fall where they do, and balance from there.
With Squeen's design team, that would mean that DPS would be generally happy out the gate, with tweaks and fixes here and there over the course of maybe a year or two at most, WAR/PLD/GUN would be touched up and worked on after that, and healers and DRK would be living on a hope and prayer for 4-9 years, but I mean, what's the remainder of this MMO's lifetime in order to get a unique PVE design that doesn't make the designers feel so constricted that YoshiP has to say that we can't get any of the 50+ historical jobs from the series because they'd be too much of the same thing, and has to design new and unique jobs for his MMO to get anything "different and interesting?"

Since they apparently can't do both unique and fun designs and also balance them, I'd rather have a unique and unbalanced set of jobs, because then it would at least be fun.

And don't come crying to me about some person barring me from joining a party in PF, because (1) I don't bother with PF anyway and (2) that doesn't stop me from playing with friends and (3) duty finder is still going to be a thing, and I'd love to see the desperate DPS leave and take the penalties when they don't get "meta" job picks for their PUG.