Why do casuals act as if it's the end of the world when suggesting?

[anhaato]

We’re not necessarily saying make baseline content harder (though that’s my wet dream) I just wish we had more hard modes of stuff to make the daily grinds less of a chore that I can turn off my brain for. That’s why I preferred farming my relics in Bozja, the alternative methods were enough to bore me to tears.

The only baseline I want to become harder is job design, because no matter how easy a job gets as long as it requires SOME form of thought there will always be a large chunk of the players who are adamantly against thinking and turn their nose up at rotation guides. And that’s fine for the most part, normal content doesn’t require proper rotations anyway, just about everything can be facerolled and cleared. Yes, it’s easy content. Braindead content, even. It might hurt you to hear this, but if it doesn’t require any soft of optimal rotations or crucial mechanics, it’s easy.

Other than that I want to see stuff like actual hard modes for dungeons, fates that are at a higher difficulty than the regular ones similar to Bozja’s CEs with better xp or drops, maybe real time duels like the devs were musing about a few months ago, roulettes that select from higher difficulty duties for greater rewards. Would that provide more skilled players with greater advantages? Absolutely, but those advantages could easily serve as motivation to improve. And when people get into improving and optimizing, then all of a sudden there’s a lot more to do in the game. As Misshapen Chair put it, when it feels like the sky is the limit with how good you can get at a job then it feels like the content never runs out. Unfortunately the limit as it stands now is much lower than the sky…

[Gemina]

It might hurt you to hear this, but if it doesn’t require any soft of optimal rotations or crucial mechanics, it’s easy.

That's not even what makes content difficult. It can add an element of challenge as you're getting them down, sure but rotations and mechanics can be committed to muscle memory. Hell, there have even been occasions where I knew what was coming based on what point in the OST was playing, or even where I was at in my rotation. Memorization is a skill that only shows how good you are at following instructions.

What truly makes content difficult to clear is that which you don't have control over, and it is also the same thing that should be helping you clear it: The other players. In order to deal with other players you need true skills in these situations called adaptability and reaction time. This is where a savage guru can get outshined in an alliance raid by a casual. Because while the savage player is constantly in a static and deals with how well they can memorize an encounter, the casual player is consistently in unscripted situations involving their teammates. Mechanics being scripted is not the same as the player whose poor positioning has him get knocked off the arena, or a bleed status that seals their fate.

If you understand this, then you should understand how the difficulty you perceive is not the same as the difficulty the devs have to work at to make sure the game is playable for all their subscribers.

Of course, you are always welcome to make your own game with your own rules.

[anhaato]

That's not even what makes content difficult. It can add an element of challenge as you're getting them down, sure but rotations and mechanics can be committed to muscle memory. Hell, there have even been occasions where I knew what was coming based on what point in the OST was playing, or even where I was at in my rotation. Memorization is a skill that only shows how good you are at following instructions.

What truly makes content difficult to clear is that which you don't have control over, and it is also the same thing that should be helping you clear it: The other players.

...You're saying the content is hard because other people are bad players? That's kinda... not the content's fault my dude. Also simplifying it down to memorization just isn't accurate. Knowing how to use your rotation while reacting to difficult mechanics at the same time uses way more brainpower. And why is memorizing your rotation a bad thing anyway? That means you've built up experience and become comfortable with your job. What, is Gordon Ramsay bad at cooking because there's probably hundreds of dishes he knows to cook like the back of his hand?

In order to deal with other players you need true skills in these situations called adaptability and reaction time. This is where a savage guru can get outshined in an alliance raid by a casual. Because while the savage player is constantly in a static and deals with how well they can memorize an encounter, the casual player is consistently in unscripted situations involving their teammates. Mechanics being scripted is not the same as the player whose poor positioning has him get knocked off the arena, or a bleed status that seals their fate.

There's no way you're actually mansplaining to me how playing a multiplayer game works. Crazy how the content you speak of still gets cleared relatively quickly with a bunch of shitters, huh? Recent alliances are the only "difficult" form of casual content that might get numerous wipes after the first day. Also, you act like there's no such thing as human error that creates situations that must be adapted to among "consistent" statics. Would you have the skill to adapt to E12S terminal relativity if people were dying who had necessary mitigations? What about adjusting for someone going to the wrong spot for temporal stasis in TEA? That's a whole different level of reaction time than someone hitting the wrong elemental circle in Dun Scaith.

These are some insane mental gymnastics. People working hard to get good at the game and being consistent and making few mistakes means they're bad at the game actually, the ones who have to wrangle the shitters in normal content are like totally better at the game! Cope.

If you understand this, then you should understand how the difficulty you perceive is not the same as the difficulty the devs have to work at to make sure the game is playable for all their subscribers.

If casual players are truly oh so good at the game for being shitter patrol, then surely the lack of skill in your df party shouldn't be a problem no matter the difficulty. But I don't see why you're arguing this, as I've said nothing about wanting all baseline content to be at savage level. I EXPLICITLY said that I want there to be more options in between. What's not clicking?

Of course, you are always welcome to make your own game with your own rules.

Just couldn't finish off without simping for the megacorp, huh? You people are all the same.

[Gemina]

...You're saying the content is hard because other people are bad players? That's kinda... not the content's fault my dude. Also simplifying it down to memorization just isn't accurate. Knowing how to use your rotation while reacting to difficult mechanics at the same time uses way more brainpower. And why is memorizing your rotation a bad thing anyway? That means you've built up experience and become comfortable with your job. What, is Gordon Ramsay bad at cooking because there's probably hundreds of dishes he knows to cook like the back of his hand?

No. I am saying other players adds an element to the difficulty you have no control over. This statement is an emotional reaction to my comments, and bears little accuracy to the point I was making to you.

There's no way you're actually mansplaining to me how playing a multiplayer game works. Crazy how the content you speak of still gets cleared relatively quickly with a bunch of shitters, huh? Recent alliances are the only "difficult" form of casual content that might get numerous wipes after the first day. Also, you act like there's no such thing as human error that creates situations that must be adapted to among "consistent" statics. Would you have the skill to adapt to E12S terminal relativity if people were dying who had necessary mitigations? What about adjusting for someone going to the wrong spot for temporal stasis in TEA? That's a whole different level of reaction time than someone hitting the wrong elemental circle in Dun Scaith.

Apparently I do. I don't fault you there though. It is easy to lose sight as we gain more experience with the game, and sometimes we have to be reminded that causal content is as the name entails, "casual". It's not meant to greatly punish players who make mistakes. Casual content is designed to be cleared. If you want to get into clear rates, then we start getting into EX/Unreal/Savage content. You typically don't find casuals in this content. Players starting off with EX/Unreal content need to understand that there are true expectations to perform now. This removes the casual factor whether the player is casual or not. I am not saying that reactionary requirements are not present in high-end duties, I am saying that unlike scripted mechanics and streamlined rotations, reactionary requirements are not static.

These are some insane mental gymnastics. People working hard to get good at the game and being consistent and making few mistakes means they're bad at the game actually, the ones who have to wrangle the shitters in normal content are like totally better at the game! Cope.

I would avoid talking about getting good at a game wherein players actively use unsupported addons that not all players have access to in order make things easier, or gauge their own performance, or performances of others. I would also avoid it when you refer to your fellow teammates who are not as good as you as "sh**ters in normal content". Mental gymnastics are not required to engage/disengage with players with bad attitudes.

If casual players are truly oh so good at the game for being shitter patrol, then surely the lack of skill in your df party shouldn't be a problem no matter the difficulty. But I don't see why you're arguing this, as I've said nothing about wanting all baseline content to be at savage level. I EXPLICITLY said that I want there to be more options in between. What's not clicking?

I never made statements to you under the impression that you wanted baseline content at a savage level. I don't even know where you're getting that at all. My initial comments towards you was that mechanics and rotations don't provide much difficulty beyond the initial learning stage, due to being scripted and streamlined respectively. Memorization/following instructions are not retainable skills, and specific to a task; so they are not really transferrable either. That is the only reason why I said a casual player can outshine a savage runner in an alliance raid. It doesn't mean the casual is better at the game than the savage runner. It just means they are more adapted to reactionary situations in the game due to always grouping with random players, and never a static. You should not take offense to this, because it is not the intent of my statements...

Just couldn't finish off without simping for the megacorp, huh? You people are all the same.

But you decide to anyway. Such a shame.

[anhaato]

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You can argue semantics all you want, knock yourself out. The fact of the matter is that you're attributing the difficulty of normal content to the lack of skill of others who play it. Yes, lack of skill, because you specifically named mistakes. Just because I call them "shitters," and not to their faces, doesn't mean you're not also looking down upon your fellow players in doing so. I used to be a shitter, and I got better. Everyone has the chance to do so, just depends on whether or not they want to. Unfortunately, not a lot want to.

Your argument is fundamentally flawed because you fail to consider first that casual players and savage players overlap. Every savage player has some degree of experience in casual content.

Second, you refuse to understand that savage is not purely memorization, and I'm not sure how many times I have to explain that for you to get it. Have you done savage at all? I doubt it, considering you're arguing based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what it entails, but I'll retain benefit of the doubt for the time being. Feel free to prove that you know what you're talking about and are speaking from a place of experience rather than hearsay.

Becoming accustomed to rotations in tandem with mechanics is, itself, difficult. You seem to be intent on arguing that it's not, for whatever reason. Further, being able to quickly become accustomed to a fight in terms of correct mechanics and a consistent rotation is a skill that is built up over time. It's the difference between taking a while to get your first green in E1S versus getting your first purple in P1S within a matter of two or three clears. Is that not a retainable skill? Oh, whoops, sorry I forgot third party tools are bad! Guess that means I'm not good at the game, according to you (for the record I don't use ACT). Or am I? You don't seem to be able to make up your mind.

I would appreciate if you wouldn't backtrack. You distinguished memorization, after attributing it as the sole skill required for savages, from "true skills" for a reason. You talked about a "savage guru" getting outshined by people with these "true skills" for a reason. There's no reason you would argue this if not to prop up one type of player over another. If that wasn't the intent, then you must understand why that appeared to be so.

You argued "the difficulty the devs have to work at to make sure the game is playable for all their subscribers" for a reason. There's no reason you would argue this if not under the assumption that I was asking for normal content to be more difficult, which I did not. If that wasn't the intent, then you must understand why that appeared to be so.

No offense taken here, by the way. I simply disagree. And was I wrong? Were you not springing to Square Enix's defense with your asinine comment?

Also, if I were you I'd make sure I'm damn secure with my own performance before I started accusing others of reliance on third party tools in order to invalidate their hard work and skill. I won't be so shallow as to visit a certain website to determine whether or not you have the proper highground to be making such statements and try to use it against you if possible... but others will.