Keep overpower cone shaped!

[Shurrikhan]

Indeed, I have to wonder if limiting all dungeon mechanics to what basic NPC AI can do is a good idea for a game that, I had thought, was supposed to be about a (human) multiplayer experience.

[marelooke]

You're confusing the Aery with Sohr Khai, but anyway.

Indeed I was. One of these I'll be able to keep the names straight, but today was not that day

The change was made at the same time they introduced duty support NPCs for 2.0 duties, so it's assumed that they're changing it in preparation to add support for those duties as well. The NPCs might not be able to handle the variable path as the number of platforms changes, or maybe teaching them to do it would be more time than they want to spend on a single fight.

It's not like you could fall off the old platforms anyway, when the wind jumps just took you to the next safe platform, and the boss dies too fast to worry about positioning anyway.

To be fair, I've had runs where DPS was low enough that it got close. I doubt it'd ever actually happen, but it at least added some sense of urgency.

What I'm asking myself is, is that actually a good thing? Because if they do not want to invest the time to make the NPCs work with certain mechanics then all this does is limit their design options and stifle creativity.

Sure it allows some players to entirely solo the content where they are implemented but it also potentially makes the experience worse for everyone.


Right now nobody is really bothered by it because it only affects dungeons and those are a joke anyway, but what happens when the Duty Support system bleeds into other content as well in SE's perpetual attempt to make the game appeal to solo players?

See, FFXIV dungeons aren't/weren't as much of a joke as those in many other MMOs. There's quite a few dungeons that have mechanics that require some thought, experience, or at least a brief explanation of tactics. While certainly the trend seems to been downward when it comes to dungeon complexity there's still the likes of Pharos Sirius out there.

What happens when every mechanic, and even environment design, needs to be so limited that the NPCs can deal with it? Their current dungeon design is so incredibly stale that I can't be bothered doing them more than once or twice already.

The ability to have mechanics of a type that can't easily be handled with AI is one of the things that makes MMOs stand out from single player games. When one cuts that out the only thing left is arguably the social aspect.

Question then is whether the social aspect is enough. Guess SE thinks it is. Given how barren the MMO landscape is when it comes to quality games, it might well be, at least untill some game comes around that combines both of these aspects again, and players start migrating. Should it ever come to that then the ship will have sailed, as dumbing down "normal" content is borderline irreversible (see Blizzard's "let's make heroics hard again" disaster in early Cataclysm)

[XRuecian]

I can't believe people are actually upset by this change. No matter how you look at it, a circle AoE covers more area than a cone does. Especially when you consider that enemies can not 'stack' on top of each other in this game. This means no matter what, when you get a lot of enemies together, they are going to naturally pile up around you in a CIRCLE. By making this change, this means you have to MOVE LESS to continue your AoE combo. Meaning that the DPS on your team is not getting screwed over by you backing up constantly to hit enemies with your cone.

[Mikey_R]

I can't believe people are actually upset by this change. No matter how you look at it, a circle AoE covers more area than a cone does. Especially when you consider that enemies can not 'stack' on top of each other in this game. This means no matter what, when you get a lot of enemies together, they are going to naturally pile up around you in a CIRCLE. By making this change, this means you have to MOVE LESS to continue your AoE combo. Meaning that the DPS on your team is not getting screwed over by you backing up constantly to hit enemies with your cone.

They do not naturally pile up around you, they easily stay infront, and you do not have to keep backing up just to keep them infront. This is something that has been said many many times in this thread.

Also, as a DRK player, you want the mobs to be infront of you, easier to hit them all with Flood/Shadowbringer.

[XRuecian]

Your right, i do want them in front of me. And its an annoyance and a half because of it. I cant count how many times i have to reposition so that my "Line AOE" will hit all the enemies i want it to. Which is not a big deal if we are only talking about 3-4 enemies. But once you get to like 5-6+ enemies, once i reposition, some of those enemies are going to reposition as well. Which means ill have to reposition again, and so on. Enemies "Push" each other. So if you have a big enough group, its literally impossible for them all to stay "in front of you" because some of them will be pushed away, and then they will push into the group, which will FORCE the group to begin encircling you.

[Shurrikhan]

I can't believe people are actually upset by this change. No matter how you look at it, a circle AoE covers more area than a cone does. Especially when you consider that enemies can not 'stack' on top of each other in this game. This means no matter what, when you get a lot of enemies together, they are going to naturally pile up around you in a CIRCLE. By making this change, this means you have to MOVE LESS to continue your AoE combo. Meaning that the DPS on your team is not getting screwed over by you backing up constantly to hit enemies with your cone.

The cone was roughly 150 degrees. It had an 8-yalm radius. (150/360)8²π = 83.8 sq yalms.
The circle has a radius of only 5 yalms, costing you 60% of your range. (360/360)5²π = 78.5 sq yalms, only 39.25 of which face forward.

Even if you were to stand perfectly in the middle of the enemies as to get value out of the otherwise wasted 39 sq yalms behind you, purposely not doing your job in gathering them as tightly as you could, the circle is still a smaller area.

In short, the cone has a 7% greater area, and 213% greater forward-facing area. Your statement is patently untrue.

[Kallis]

Your right, i do want them in front of me. And its an annoyance and a half because of it. I cant count how many times i have to reposition so that my "Line AOE" will hit all the enemies i want it to. Which is not a big deal if we are only talking about 3-4 enemies. But once you get to like 5-6+ enemies, once i reposition, some of those enemies are going to reposition as well. Which means ill have to reposition again, and so on. Enemies "Push" each other. So if you have a big enough group, its literally impossible for them all to stay "in front of you" because some of them will be pushed away, and then they will push into the group, which will FORCE the group to begin encircling you.

I really suggest you practice more tanking then, because what you're describing makes it sound like youhave no idea what you're doing. Which is totally fine we all have to start somewhere. But seriously, ask your casters how they feel about you pulling multiple packs and just sitting there inthe middle , with them all surrounding you, like an absolute dope

[Donoman]

I can't believe people are actually upset by this change. No matter how you look at it, a circle AoE covers more area than a cone does. Especially when you consider that enemies can not 'stack' on top of each other in this game. This means no matter what, when you get a lot of enemies together, they are going to naturally pile up around you in a CIRCLE. By making this change, this means you have to MOVE LESS to continue your AoE combo. Meaning that the DPS on your team is not getting screwed over by you backing up constantly to hit enemies with your cone.

I thought the same at first but no, the cone had way more range and it was far more useful and pulling mobs that were further away. I thought I hated the cone, but my god I absolutely hate how tiny the range on the circle is. I would do anything to get the cone back x.x

[Chopstix]

Your right, i do want them in front of me. And its an annoyance and a half because of it. I cant count how many times i have to reposition so that my "Line AOE" will hit all the enemies i want it to. Which is not a big deal if we are only talking about 3-4 enemies. But once you get to like 5-6+ enemies, once i reposition, some of those enemies are going to reposition as well. Which means ill have to reposition again, and so on. Enemies "Push" each other. So if you have a big enough group, its literally impossible for them all to stay "in front of you" because some of them will be pushed away, and then they will push into the group, which will FORCE the group to begin encircling you.

Hear hear. Look at this guy having the right of it and getting lambasted by all these ppl who "know how to tank."

The cone was roughly 150 degrees. It had an 8-yalm radius. (150/360)8²π = 83.8 sq yalms.
The circle has a radius of only 5 yalms, costing you 60% of your range. (360/360)5²π = 78.5 sq yalms, only 39.25 of which face forward.

Even if you were to stand perfectly in the middle of the enemies as to get value out of the otherwise wasted 39 sq yalms behind you, purposely not doing your job in gathering them as tightly as you could, the circle is still a smaller area.

In short, the cone has a 7% greater area, and 213% greater forward-facing area. Your statement is patently untrue.

No, u r woefully incorrect in practice. Good bit of the cone goes to waste, particularly the edges at the back, BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING THERE (there goes ur 7% totally wasted, omegalul). Also the cone was rather narrow and there is a good chance of u missing stuff that is directly to ur side (which is going to happen). If u stand in the middle u have a reach of 5 yalms in EVERY direction (that is 10 yalms across). With a cone u only have a reach of 8 in the general forward direction.

FURTHERMORE u r being completely ignorant about the efficiency of the circle. The area to circumference ratio is much better, meaning a smaller telegraph is going to be more efficient with a circle shape, than a larger with a different kind of shape.

I still cant believe this nonsense thread is going on. I guess ppl need some form of entertainment because dungeons r boring?

[Mikey_R]

No, u r woefully incorrect in practice. Good bit of the cone goes to waste, particularly the edges at the back, BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING THERE (there goes ur 7% totally wasted, omegalul). Also the cone was rather narrow and there is a good chance of u missing stuff that is directly to ur side (which is going to happen). If u stand in the middle u have a reach of 5 yalms in EVERY direction (that is 10 yalms across). With a cone u only have a reach of 8 in the general forward direction.

I hear this alot and I am sure so many people underestimate the size of the cone, so, I done some testing.

https://imgur.com/oGo41b2
This shows the size of the cone using striking dummies. I was in the corner of the wall in the bottom right, I was aiming at the dummy at the top, which is at max range fyi. The left most dummy shows max range in that direction, the one slight in is just there for something to hit (like line AoEs, cones suffer from the fact that, if you hit at max range on a dummy, it will not register, this is an issue only on dummies though).

So, attacking the top dummy, do you expect the dummy in the gateway to get hit? Of course you don't, however, it does. Pretty sure that is alot wider than you thought right?

Going onto the next image:
https://imgur.com/p4v6eoQ
The top and left most dummies are in the same spot as the top and leftmost ones in the cone picture, that third dummy however shows you the range on a player centric AoE of 5y. Quite a big difference.

This last picture is just a reference, and shows how much of a difference the discrepancy is between the max range cone and the max range it registers a hit.
https://imgur.com/iXB6qr0

All the pics were taken from top down at max zoom, so in theory they are all the same scale, I would add an AoE to better indicate the range, however, I'm not that good at image manipulation, even if it is just slapping a shape onto it.

(For some reason it didn't imbed the images, so, unfortunately, you are going to have to click the links).

Bonus:
Because I'm pretty sure people will say the first image is fake, I pulled out my super secret video skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdI30BcrSo

As always the dummies furthest away show the max cone range, there is a dummy in the gateway (probably not in the same place as the pic) to show that that is indeed in the path. Video starts with me tucking myself away in the corner, which I how I made sure I was always in the same spot. I showed the far dummies are in range of Grim Swathe (the soul cost is white, not red), I Harpe so that I know I am facing the dummy at the back dead on and, without moving, use Grim Swathe, which yes, does have the same range as old Overpower. The dummy in the gateway gets hit, clear as day. That cone is definitely bigger than you thought it was going to be.