Can we stop punishing shield healers for playing together?

[ty_taurus]

Laughs in AST Neutral Sect.

Those 30s WHM/AST shields also have 2 charges, are instant cast, and free.

You're missing the point.

AST/WHM barriers are exclusive to cooldowns. Even though Divine Benison and Celestial Intersection are only 30 second cooldowns, they're single target only. Meanwhile Neutral Sect is a limited duration effect once every 120 seconds that comes at the opportunity cost of MP and DPS.

SCH/SGE barriers, while generally garbage healing tools in 95% of circumstances, can be used during any GCD. Were they to stack together, could enable them to more aggressively brute force their way through prog and give SCH/SGE comps a significant advantage in learning new fights for the first time.

There's an argument that could be made for how important it is to balance around specifically prog vs general casual gameplay experience since the majority of the community doesn't really care about prog, and thus an alternative solution should be found, but it really doesn't matter as it stands because Adloquium/Succor and E. Diagnosis/E. Prognosis are some of the assiest heals on each healer's respective kit, beating out only Physick and vanilla Diagnosis/Prognosis. The inability to overlap barriers shouldn't matter because you really shouldn't be using them outside of the most dire or niche scenarios, and if you are in that position, only 1 healer should realistically need to do so anyway, which should automatically go to SCH because their barriers are better.

[IceBlueNinja]

You're missing the point.

AST/WHM barriers are exclusive to cooldowns. Even though Divine Benison and Celestial Intersection are only 30 second cooldowns, they're single target only. Meanwhile Neutral Sect is a limited duration effect once every 120 seconds that comes at the opportunity cost of MP and DPS.

SCH/SGE barriers, while generally garbage healing tools in 95% of circumstances, can be used during any GCD. Were they to stack together, could enable them to more aggressively brute force their way through prog and give SCH/SGE comps a significant advantage in learning new fights for the first time.

There's an argument that could be made for how important it is to balance around specifically prog vs general casual gameplay experience since the majority of the community doesn't really care about prog, and thus an alternative solution should be found, but it really doesn't matter as it stands because Adloquium/Succor and E. Diagnosis/E. Prognosis are some of the assiest heals on each healer's respective kit, beating out only Physick and vanilla Diagnosis/Prognosis. The inability to overlap barriers shouldn't matter because you really shouldn't be using them outside of the most dire or niche scenarios, and if you are in that position, only 1 healer should realistically need to do so anyway, which should automatically go to SCH because their barriers are better.

e dig crit and alco crit is the same potency what are you talking about:? actually sage may even be stronger on single barriers because zoe+physis and krasis = is mass heal increase potency, If your taking aclo crit to use dt (which imo waste so much time) thats the only slight reason sch aoe shield maybe better to e prog else its actually whack and do remember panima and hamia not only does some migi but they also burst heal for the remaining stacks something sch other wise pathetic shields dont do. sch only had 2 abilities to boost its heal to only what 30% which is illum and disipate ? while zoe which is 50% physis which is 10% and krasis is 20% =80% increase heals that is a major difference.

I really think that spread crit alco via dt is so over rated, without recitation crit alco sch barriers is garbage sorry. Even noct ast could outbeat crit alco also dt shields and finally sages shields are instant while sch has to be casting theirs. I use tons of crit and det on my items and I give some pretty meaty party shields as a sage with e prog so idk something sounds off here.

[IceBlueNinja]

That just shows a pretty blatant double standard. WHM/AST shields can stack with SCH/SGE shields but SCH / SGE shields can't stack with each other why?

Because "reasons".

Yeah it really makes 0 sense and its not like intersection of ast is weak. its pretty powerful to that of a regular e dig or alco. Also they dont seem to mind regens stacking like crazy... like ok then. Maybe there be a thing of pure heal/pure shield if they applied the same rule to regens like they did shields maybe you see more 1 pure heal 1 shield healer comp. Overall I just hate having another sage or sch when am a sage period.

[ty_taurus]

e dig crit and alco crit is the same potency what are you talking about:? actually sage may even be stronger on single barriers because zoe+physis and krasis = is mass heal increase potency, If your taking aclo crit to use dt (which imo waste so much time) thats the only slight reason sch aoe shield maybe better to e prog else its actually whack and do remember panima and hamia not only does some migi but they also burst heal for the remaining stacks something sch other wise pathetic shields dont do. sch only had 2 abilities to boost its heal to only what 30% which is illum and disipate ? while zoe which is 50% physis which is 10% and krasis is 20% =80% increase heals that is a major difference.

I really think that spread crit alco via dt is so over rated, without recitation crit alco sch barriers is garbage sorry. Even noct ast could outbeat crit alco also dt shields and finally sages shields are instant while sch has to be casting theirs. I use tons of crit and det on my items and I give some pretty meaty party shields as a sage with e prog so idk something sounds off here.

Idk what to tell you. Your math is whack, and I can't fix that. Crit Aldo is much stronger than E. Prognosis and that's not a "my opinion" thing. It's a statistical fact, but play how you want. It's not like being a suboptimal healer matters in any meaningful way.

[IceBlueNinja]

Idk what to tell you. Your math is whack, and I can't fix that. Crit Aldo is much stronger than E. Prognosis and that's not a "my opinion" thing. It's a statistical fact, but play how you want. It's not like being a suboptimal healer matters in any meaningful way.

I cover my hp bar fully or dps or half a tank bar with e diag and again alco crit and e diag same pot and sage has better boost heal potency heal abilities than sch do. You should try to make some evidence to prove your so called statistics rather than throwing insults else your point is whack and invalid. The game literally has both showing same potency.

[Deceptus]

You're missing the point.

AST/WHM barriers are exclusive to cooldowns. Even though Divine Benison and Celestial Intersection are only 30 second cooldowns, they're single target only. Meanwhile Neutral Sect is a limited duration effect once every 120 seconds that comes at the opportunity cost of MP and DPS.

SCH/SGE barriers, while generally garbage healing tools in 95% of circumstances, can be used during any GCD. Were they to stack together, could enable them to more aggressively brute force their way through prog and give SCH/SGE comps a significant advantage in learning new fights for the first time.

If you're chain casting Shields you're doing something extremely wrong. You're generally only using them for Tank Busters or Raidwides which comes out roughtly. . . every 30s to 1 minute. Which lines up perfectly with WHM / AST ability shields. What that does is punish SCH/SGE teams, which in PUG content you have no control over your team mate.

I cover my hp bar fully or dps or half a tank bar with e diag and again alco crit and e diag same pot and sage has better boost heal potency heal abilities than sch do. You should try to make some evidence to prove your so called statistics rather than throwing insults else your point is whack and invalid. The game literally has both showing same potency.

I've noticed this as well. When I crit with SGE shield, it covers up a lot more of a tanks HP bar then a SCH crit Adlo. Despite both of them being a 300 Potency Heal with a 1.8 shield modifier. Both have the same Maim & Mend traits so something else is boosting SGE shield Crits more than SCH shield Crits.

[ty_taurus]

If you're chain casting Shields you're doing something extremely wrong. You're generally only using them for Tank Busters or Raidwides which comes out roughtly. . . every 30s to 1 minute. Which lines up perfectly with WHM / AST ability shields. What that does is punish SCH/SGE teams, which in PUG content you have no control over your team mate.



I've noticed this as well. When I crit with SGE shield, it covers up a lot more of a tanks HP bar then a SCH crit Adlo. Despite both of them being a 300 Potency Heal with a 1.8 shield modifier. Both have the same Maim & Mend traits so something else is boosting SGE shield Crits more than SCH shield Crits.

If you're using barriers for tankbusters and raidwides, you're doing something wrong. Unless those attacks will literally kill the tank/party (in which case if they are that powerful, OGCD mitigation from you, the tank, and/or DPS is the solution, not barriers) you should never even be thinking about GCD barriers. Why on earth would you drop DPS and waste a chunk of MP for a heal that could otherwise be taken care of by one or more of:

SCH: Embrace, Whispering Dawn, Lustrate, Indomitability, Sacred Soil, Excogitation, Aetherpact, Fey Blessing, Seraph & Consolation, or Protraction
SGE: Kardia, Physis II, Soteria, Druochole, Kerachole, Ixochole, Taurochole, Haima, Panhaima, Holos, Pneuma

All of these actions come at no opportunity cost of MP or DPS, many of them have very short cooldowns, and damage is spread out far enough that you'll never find yourself exhausted of all these resources outside of progging as you try and get a feel for the rhythm of that fight.

By in large, Adlo, Succor, E. Diagnosis, and E. Prognosis should almost never be touched--certainly not in anything below Extreme and even then, what are you really doing if you're relying on these in EX? Are you just sitting on full Addersgall all fight?

I cover my hp bar fully or dps or half a tank bar with e diag and again alco crit and e diag same pot and sage has better boost heal potency heal abilities than sch do. You should try to make some evidence to prove your so called statistics rather than throwing insults else your point is whack and invalid. The game literally has both showing same potency.

You're comparing Crit Adlo to E. Diag. If you can get lucky with a crit E. Diag under Zoe, then yes you would in theory provide a larger single target barrier than Crit Adlo. That said, the value of Crit Aldo is not trying to outdo the borderline uselessness of single target barriers, it's spreading that thicker Galvanize effect to the whole party which means you should be comparing Crit Aldo to E. Prognosis, not E. Diagnosis (unless you've found a way to spread E. Diag to the party).

When you use Crit Adlo and Deployment tactics, your increased barrier value is guaranteed on every party member and can ensure that your Adlo is a crit with Recitation, something SGE cannot do. Zoe E. Prognosis could maybe provide slightly more on some party members if it crits, but you have no way of ensuring that. Zoe + E. Prognosis is not enough to out barrier Crit Aldo + Deployment on its own.

[IceBlueNinja]

Lol I get why your not understanding. ok when I say E diag crit am talking about the 2nd barrier we get call differential diagnosis which is the same potency as a crit alco if not bigger cause zoe/physis/krasis . I dont care if we cant spread e prog other wise sch be pointless because we have hanima and panima which not only does good migi but does burst heals if any stacks of the barrier is Left. So for balance purposes it kinda makes sense why they didnt allow a differential diagnosis to be spread and who knows maybe they may consider it in the future, imagine if we could spread differential diagnosis which also stacks with panima and haima sch really would be even worst off. So again that over rated recitate + aclo + dt thing is still time consuming because you got to cast alco after recite then use dt, mean while I prefer my instant shield casting.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Honestly, my only wish is for them to fix the shield priority system to alleviate this double barrier nuances. Please don't allow weaker shield to overwrite stronger shield under ANY circumstances. I'm not saying they really NEED their shield that badly. It's just annoying to have prep'ed a very solid setup to spread a critical adloquium but then you have that E.Prognosis trigger happy SGE overwriting it with their paper thin barriers.

Part of me wants to think that they purposely made it this way to ensure the less geared healers won't feel 'useless' when they are paired with better geared players for seeing their shields 100% of time not registering or getting overwritten by their better co-healer. (Yes, excuse my paranoia.)

I cover my hp bar fully or dps or half a tank bar with e diag and again alco crit and e diag same pot and sage has better boost heal potency heal abilities than sch do. You should try to make some evidence to prove your so called statistics rather than throwing insults else your point is whack and invalid. The game literally has both showing same potency.

I've noticed this as well. When I crit with SGE shield, it covers up a lot more of a tanks HP bar then a SCH crit Adlo. Despite both of them being a 300 Potency Heal with a 1.8 shield modifier. Both have the same Maim & Mend traits so something else is boosting SGE shield Crits more than SCH shield Crits.

Not in my gameplay. Both still generate around the same amount of shield, varying ever so slightly thanks to low/high rolls.

The only way for SGE's Crit E.Diag barrier to generate larger shield than Critlo's is from getting a critical cast on top of having Zoe active. Let's compare the two a little bit:

• To generate thickest shield on SCH: Fey Illumination(1.1), Dissipation(1.2), Protraction(1.1), and Recitation(1.6) stacked together into a single Adlo cast = 1,255.5*2 of shield potency separate into Catalyze and Galvanize portions. While weaker, SCHs have the mean to spread that generated shield, temporarily bolstering eHP, partywide. In addition to having Recitation on their disposal, they can always guarantee that critical bonus should they wish to.
  
• Meanwhile as a SGE they have to: Physis II (1.1), Zoe(1.5), & Krasis(1.2) stacked together into a single CRITICAL(1.6) E.Diagnosis cast = 1,710.7*2 of shield potency separated into Eukrasian Diagnosis and Differential Diagnosis portions. In the end although they do come out with more barrier potency on a single target, they do not possess any mean to manipulate said shield. Not even Zoe'd E.Prognosis can surpass SCH's Critlo spread potency. And above all? Goodluck trying to fish for that unreliable critical procs. Besides, Zoe synergies way better for Pneuma usage than anything else in their arsenals in lv90 content.

[IceBlueNinja]

If you're chain casting Shields you're doing something extremely wrong. You're generally only using them for Tank Busters or Raidwides which comes out roughtly. . . every 30s to 1 minute. Which lines up perfectly with WHM / AST ability shields. What that does is punish SCH/SGE teams, which in PUG content you have no control over your team mate.



I've noticed this as well. When I crit with SGE shield, it covers up a lot more of a tanks HP bar then a SCH crit Adlo. Despite both of them being a 300 Potency Heal with a 1.8 shield modifier. Both have the same Maim & Mend traits so something else is boosting SGE shield Crits more than SCH shield Crits.

power of krasis/physis/zoe vs illum/dissipate xD . Love your siggy specially the dead dps part!!!!! lol