*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[Rulakir]

What you would do or think hardly matters, since we're talking about whether or not Venat believes she was right.

We were discussing suspension of disbelief so, yes, what I think does matter in that regard. However, to be fair, Hermes suffers from the same issue having gone from vegan to "kill all the things" in a matter of seconds.

Some of the reasons people hate Endwalker or Venat specifically are extremely strange, and sometimes even vaguely misogynist or racist. It's uncomfortable.

Do you have examples? Genuinely curious because everyone I've spoken to who doesn't like Venat doesn't due to her actions not who or what she is. As for racism, I've only seen it directed towards Ancients as a whole, not specifically Venat.

As far as wishing for an AU is concerned, that's what happens when you introduce time travel in an expansion following one with an AU. I was fine with the way things ended in ShB. My main hope for EW were Echo flashbacks. Instead, the send us back to the past, allow us to interact with it, dangle the opportunity to change fate and then yank it away at the last second with the most BS plot contrivances imaginable. I struggle to think of how they could've made it feel any more unsatisfactory.

[KariTheFox]

We were discussing suspension of disbelief so, yes, what I think does matter in that regard. However, to be fair, Hermes suffers from the same issue having gone from vegan to "kill all the things" in a matter of seconds.

I don't know how to explain to you that characters in fiction are not you, and may behave or think in ways that you do not agree with or sympathize with. Part of the willing suspension of disbelief is accepting that fictional characters may have values and priorities different from our own, and act on them to move the story.

"Well that's dumb, I wouldn't do that." Isn't really a critique that engages with the materiel at all.

For example, if I was in Emet-Selch's position I could not see myself building several fascistic empires and manipulating a bunch of civilizations into thier own destruction for the sake of bringing my comrades back to life, but I can understand that he would see that as the only option.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I don't know how to explain to you that characters in fiction are not you, and may behave or think in ways that you do not agree with or sympathize with. Part of the willing suspension of disbelief is accepting that fictional characters may have values and priorities different from our own, and act on them to move the story.

"Well that's dumb, I wouldn't do that." Isn't really a critique that engages with the materiel at all.

For example, if I was in Emet-Selch's position I could not see myself building several fascistic empires and manipulating a bunch of civilizations into thier own destruction for the sake of bringing my comrades back to life, but I can understand that he would see that as the only option.

I think for me it’s moreso that even the characters themselves don’t act like themselves or aren’t making decisions that don’t really reflect what we’ve seen they’re like. Both Venat and Hermes suffer from this where they kind of just do a snap 180. It’s also worsened by things with Venat for example where she did the sundering and everything but then we look at the dragonsong lyrics of “tell me why break trust, why turn the past to dust.” When she did both of these things. So at the very least she is either a hypocrite or it’s just horrid writing.

[Lyth]

...

It is what it is. Arguing over which faction was 'superior' or was 'more beneficial' to world progress plays out nearly identically to the standard shipping wars that most people are familiar with, and ends up being every bit as petty. Reframing it as such makes people stop and think about whether it's worth investing their energy into it at all.

I think Amaurot had its good points for the time that it had the spotlight and it was an impressive writing achievement working out of the limitations of the 2.x/3.x era Ascian cartoon villains that we used to have. But their story has largely run its course. I'm glad that the writers are moving on to something creatively fresh and not shackled by 1.0 era writing. One of the most important parts of any artistic endeavor is knowing when exactly to stop.

[KizuyaKatogami]

It is what it is. Arguing over which faction was 'superior' or was 'more beneficial' to world progress plays out nearly identically to the standard shipping wars that most people are familiar with, and ends up being every bit as petty. Reframing it as such makes people stop and think about whether it's worth investing their energy into it at all.

I think Amaurot had its good points for the time that it had the spotlight and it was an impressive writing achievement working out of the limitations of the 2.x/3.x era Ascian cartoon villains that we used to have. But their story has largely run its course. I'm glad that the writers are moving on to something creatively fresh and not shackled by 1.0 era writing. One of the most important parts of any artistic endeavor is knowing when exactly to stop.

That’s the thing though, they don’t know when to stop. We were promised a new adventure and the scions taking a step back. We didn’t get that at all. They don’t know when to stop shoving the scions down our throat, when to stop with the mass fanservice etc. That’s part of the problem. I don’t think people need to really stop or think, it’s a discussion. If you’re tired of discussion, then don’t come to the place that’s specifically for discussing. If you don’t like a thread, don’t venture into it. It really is not all that hard. Again, and i don’t mean to silence your views, but it’s incredibly ironic for you to be commenting on petty when you have criticized basically this entire forum time and time again, criticizing their iq levels, admitting to trolling etc.

[KariTheFox]

snip

I mean, I don't see how the development with Hermes isba suprise? We go to Elpis already knowing that Fandaniel is connected to and welcomes the Final Days, we spend time with him and learn that he's in a lot of pain, and Meteion flat out tells us that the report she has will "break him" - it's signposted really hard from the start.

I also don't see what the Dragonsong Lyrics have to do with Venat. Are you saying that they are both - diagetic and the words of Hydaelyn? I don't think I buy either of those. (Frankly if i had to attribute that song to any one character, it'd be Ysayle.)

[KizuyaKatogami]

I mean, I don't see how the development with Hermes isba suprise? We go to Elpis already knowing that Fandaniel is connected to and welcomes the Final Days, we spend time with him and learn that he's in a lot of pain, and Meteion flat out tells us that the report she has will "break him" - it's signposted really hard from the start.

I also don't see what the Dragonsong Lyrics have to do with Venat. Are you saying that they are both - diagetic and the words of Hydaelyn? I don't think I buy either of those. (Frankly if i had to attribute that song to any one character, it'd be Ysayle.)

The devs confirmed its sung from Hydaelyn’s PoV afaik

[Rulakir]

I don't know how to explain to you that characters in fiction are not you, and may behave or think in ways that you do not agree with or sympathize with. Part of the willing suspension of disbelief is accepting that fictional characters may have values and priorities different from our own, and act on them to move the story.

"Well that's dumb, I wouldn't do that." Isn't really a critique that engages with the materiel at all.

My 'critique of the material' is it was contrived to produce a specific result. Venat's beliefs before and after the dungeon are a 180 degree shift, her characterization is not consistent and she contradicts herself. Her beliefs are in conflict with other information presented in the game, both past and present. 'Suspending my disbelief' would require that I accept her being delusional, but this is not a supported mindset as both she and her choices are treated as unambiguously good, a 'necessary evil' at worst, despite the narrative having done none of the work for me to arrive at that conclusion.

[Lurina]

No, I didn't even quote you. I dismissed several very similar posts that were devoid of substance with a single line, and then moved on. If you think that something that I write applies to you, great. If it doesn't, also great. I'm going to have to go with Frey's words on this:

'For I speak only for myself. If you find comfort in my words, they are yours for the taking, but that is your choice. Now and ever after, as it has always been.'

You started your post by seemingly commenting on mine - the only other reply on the topic was KageTokage's, which didn't even really try to generalize anything, so that first line makes no sense if it was also addressed to them - and then in your third paragraph said "the fact that you're here on an active account six months later", singular.

If you weren't trying to talk to me, you can't really blame me for being confused.

Do you have examples? Genuinely curious because everyone I've spoken to who doesn't like Venat doesn't due to her actions not who or what she is. As for racism, I've only seen it directed towards Ancients as a whole, not specifically Venat.

To be clear, when I say that people have reactions to Venat that come across as a little misogynistic, I don't mean that their stated reason for disliking her is because she's a woman. However, some of the surrounding discourse can get a little weird in its tone. While some of the points people make about Venat's gender versus how she was approached by the writers and responded to by the playerbase have grounding in reality - I do think it's obvious the scenario team softens its female characters disproportionately to the men and avoids certain archetypes or presentations of moral complexity with them outright, which is a kind of casual misogyny itself - I've seen people make statements about how the issues with her are a symptom of writers trying to force-insert strong female characters into stories, which I can't really agree with.

Racism was probably too strong a word, but I do find it offputting how much some more extreme fans of the Ancients seem to be echoing some supremacist concepts when talking about them versus the Sundered, especially when it comes to the relative value of their lives. One of the things I found weirdest about the scenario in Endwalker was how it seemed keen to dehumanizing the Ancients for their inherent characteristics, and seeing that employed the other way outside of the setting makes me just as uneasy.

[Lyth]

?

English speakers almost universally do not draw any distinctions between second person singular and pleural, and the words 'you/your' get used interchangeably for both and it's really on the listener/reader to identify the plurality. The closest that we have to the French second person pleural 'vous' is the archaic 'ye', which only really sees use in Ireland or informally in regions where the contracted 'ye all' or 'y'all' gets used. There are a lot of ye in here, so if a statement doesn't happen to refer to you specifically on a personal level, then it just doesn't. I guess I don't really see the relevance of any of your personal anecdotes when I'm speaking to a larger group.

(NB. One could also use 'you' as an indefinite pronoun, so don't get hung up on that, either.)

By the way, this is the only part of this post that references you at all, in either second person singular or pleural form.

...

If you're writing a new story with existing characters, then you can't simply pop a new cast out of thin air, especially when there are trusts involved. I think the best way to expand out the cast significantly to eventually do something similar to FF6's Lethe River story split, and get subgroups of Scions to split off and meet new friends to party with before coming back into an ensemble down the line. That way their individual personalities don't get overwhelmed by the established group dynamics.

Either way, if we're venturing into the Void this early, I would expect that the group that goes in will probably run into some trouble and get cut off from help, and we'll probably see further splits related to Corvos and such.