What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Raoabolic]

I’m not sure how resorting to mass genocide and permanently shattering the world is “playing it safe.”

Making the mother of all gambits here, Jack. Can't fret over every soul. :^)

[Rulakir]

Venat played it safe. She gambled on our time-line prevailing, on the other hand had she confronted Hermes and the Convocation there is no telling what Hermes might have started doing.

How was it safe? She had no idea whether or not the WoL would be able to defeat Meteion, in fact, the future the WoL described should have horrified Venat rather than fascinated her. A time traveler tells you events you set in motion 12k years ago resulted in the genocide of your own race, the extinction of 7-9 of the reflections (depending on if you consider the 13th and the near obliteration of the First), the Final Days returning, and the WoL having to go back in time because they're at that "we have no idea WTF to do" point certainly would not inspire confidence in me.

Her reasons for not confronting Hermes weren't good enough, especially after we knew from Elidibus he was only credited with discovering the Final Days manifested in areas with weak currents. Emet could've apprehended him and he could've been interrogated by the Convocation. Unfortunately, Venat undermined everyone to the detriment of all. I'd argue in many ways the sundering was worse than the Final Days. I'll never understand how she is not the main antagonist of the series.

[CrownySuccubus]

I'd argue in many ways the sundering was worse than the Final Days.

Nah, I'll fight to the end against that argument.

Hermes is a mass murderer on a heretofore incalculable scale. Even if we give him a pass for the deaths of 25% of his race that was caused by the Sundering, and the millions that died with each Rejoining or any other cataclysm caused by the Ascians...

We know of at least two stars that directly died out because of his actions, and Meteion planned to end the entirely of the universe itself, with Hermes seeing this as a "valid" action.

[Rulakir]

Nah, I'll fight to the end against that argument.

Hermes is a mass murderer on a heretofore incalculable scale. Even if we give him a pass for the deaths of 25% of his race that was caused by the Sundering, and the millions that died with each Rejoining or any other cataclysm caused by the Ascians...

We know of at least two stars that directly died out because of his actions, and Meteion planned to end the entirely of the universe itself, with Hermes seeing this as a "valid" action.

I'm not talking about the universe, I'm talking about Etheirys. Especially as Zodiark had forestalled the Final Days. Venat ushered in endless unnecessary death due to her crisis of faith in her people. The sundering persists even after Meteion's defeat.

[CrownySuccubus]

I'm not talking about the universe, I'm talking about Etheirys. Especially as Zodiark had forestalled the Final Days. Venat ushered in endless unnecessary death due to her crisis of faith in her people. The sundering persists even after Meteion's defeat.

I mean, if we're going to compare the Final Days to the Sundering, then it makes no sense to omit the scale. It's like saying the "Chicago Fire was worse than the Bubonic Plague" because we're only talking about Chicago. Even with that in mind, Venat's actions (suspect as they were) are specifically stated to be done to find a more permanent end to the Final Days. Yeah, Zodiark held the world together for 12,000 years but what, exactly, was he holding the world together from?

Like I said. The "Sundering was worse than Final Days" and "Venat was worse than Hermes" arguments are where I draw the line.

[Rulakir]

I'm not arguing in defense of Hermes and you should well know by now I detest his character as well. I'm saying from a foundational lore perspective of Etheirys, Venat's crimes begin from the moment she kept quiet about the Final Days and persist into the present with no current sign of ending. At some point, the death tally as a result of the sundering will overtake that of the Final Days if it hasn't already.

You can draw whatever lines you like. I'll even argue that morally Venat was worse than Hermes because she knew the outcome of it all and still chose to do nothing differently, which was a long game plan of hers as opposed to Hermes arguably snapping in the moment. You're also ignoring that Venat's actions were due to the fear of her people becoming The Plenty, it wasn't all just about the Song of Oblivion.

[Theodric]

I'd consider the Sundering to be far worse in terms of the broader consequences. Hermes and Meteion may have set everything in motion but they could have been stopped simply by Venat speaking up and sharing the knowledge that she held.

I'm pretty sure that it's illegal in many countries to withhold information that could help solve or prevent a murder. How interesting, then, that the game ordinarily loves copying and pasting real world concepts of morality and 'justice' right up until it comes to something that might make Venat look like a complete psychopath.

Speaking of which, it's funny how often the game trots out this particular line of dialogue:

"To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence. And such a passive stance will not, I fear, take us far upon the path to progress. That you would spare these younglings the horrors of war is a decision with which I am in full agreement. Thus do I refrain from exhorting you, or any other, to return to Eorzea at my side. We must all protect that which we hold most dear in the manner of our own choosing." - Louisoix

How strange, then, that the Ancients are so heavily criticised for doing everything possible in order to protect and preserve their loved ones instead of...rolling over and allowing themselves to be wiped out and have all memory of their existence eradicated.

Worse yet, the promise to 'remember us' can't even be honoured because the game falsely presents Zodiark as being an 'ill-fated wish' instead of the very thing that ensured that Unsundered and Sundered Etheirys actually survived long enough for Venat's silly gamble to pay off.

[aveyond-dreams]

Looking back there were so many other ways that they could have gone about Venat that fans speculated about, ranging from crazed AVALANCHE environmentalist motivations to handing mankind back the reins of history like the Venat of FFXII attempted to do.

Of all these outcomes, they really did end up going with "grown up Hermoine Granger refuses to tell anyone about the major crisis about to occur, tries to do everything her way and then destroys the planet while the story props her up as a hero."

[CrownySuccubus]

I'm not arguing in defense of Hermes and you should well know by now I detest his character as well. I'm saying from a foundational lore perspective of Etheirys, Venat's crimes begin from the moment she kept quiet about the Final Days and persist into the present with no current sign of ending. At some point, the death tally as a result of the sundering will overtake that of the Final Days if it hasn't already.

You can draw whatever lines you like. I'll even argue that morally Venat was worse than Hermes because she knew the outcome of it all and still chose to do nothing differently, which was a long game plan of hers as opposed to Hermes arguably snapping in the moment. You're also ignoring that Venat's actions were due to the fear of her people becoming The Plenty, it wasn't all just about the Song of Oblivion.

Likewise, I'm well aware of Venat's culpability. But at the very least, Venat was operating under what she assumed would eschew the complete deliverance of total oblivion. A oblivion that Hermes put in motion by ignoring all protocols specifically in place to prevent it, and then resorting to violence and mental violation when called out on it. You can't even argue "Venat knew what would happen and did nothing" because Hermes, the expert on Dynamis, knew more than she did and deliberately erased everyone else's memories to make it happen. Yeah, Venat is horrible for choosing to play Hermes' death game, but Hermes is still the one who created the death game.

I didn't ignore anything, also. Venat's "solution" was equally meant to prevent the Plenty AND the Final Days on "permanent" scales. The two are not mutually exclusive. But the fact remains that even if we look solely at the Plenty as her motivation, it was specifically the Ancients' actions after the Final Days which brought her to that conclusion. Again, no Hermes, no Final Days, no Sundering.

In light of that, this:

I'd consider the Sundering to be far worse in terms of the broader consequences. Hermes and Meteion may have set everything in motion but they could have been stopped simply by Venat speaking up and sharing the knowledge that she held.

Is, quite simply, illogical.

[Rulakir]

Having recently replayed through HW, I couldn't help but notice this:



Once again, Venat more closely fits the characterization of a main villain than of a savior.